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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Metalguy
.300 member

Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY

9.3 vs 405 Win
#148543 - 22/12/09 03:20 AM

I am in the beginning stages of building a double rifle. I'm trying to decide on a caliber. I just wanted some personal preferences from people. I am trying to decide between a 9.3 x 74r or a .405 Winchester. I will probably never make it to Africa, but I will eventually be hunting bison and bears with the rifle. I'm leaning towards the 9.3 , but I can't find a whole lot of info on the 405 except that Teddy liked it! I'm looking for real world info. Any help would be great. Thanks!!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Metalguy]
#148546 - 22/12/09 03:36 AM

The .405 would be my choice. The larger the bullet diameter, the better 'effect' rifles have on tough game. Rifling twist for a 350gr. bullet would be about perfect - about 18" I think would work just fine. Faster than this isn't necessary.

If the rifle was to be used for a lot of ungulate shooting, more so than bears and buffalo, then a 9.3x74 would also do the job and be better suited for shooting to 300 yards.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: DarylS]
#148552 - 22/12/09 04:25 AM

I will be putting a 1.5 to 4.5 weaver scope on it, (detachable of course), so a cartridge that shoots farther does have more appeal. Also, I know John Taylor did not speak highly of the 405. But that was on African game. It just seems to me that Teddy Roosevelt is the only selling point to the 405!! Nobody else talks about it beyond that. I also wonder about getting brass a few years down the road? The 9.3 seems to be more consistantly available.

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Metalguy]
#148580 - 22/12/09 01:34 PM

I like Daryl's last suggestion.

I'd go for the 9.3x74R.

Tho it's a double and regulation limits the options to a degree, I like the vast diversity of bullet choices in 286 grain weight along with the superior sectional density of those bullets over the standard .405 300 weight.

It's funny, the more I look at the 9.3x74R, the more I like it, and the more I look at the .405, the less I like it. The latter was an OK cobble job for the Winchester 95, and made a lot of sense at the time as an updated .40-72, but the 9.3x74R has stood the test of time...for a reason, it is a great cartridge.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: 9.3x57]
#148586 - 22/12/09 02:14 PM

.405 is cool, but for this double rifle project I'd go with the 9.3 - and I'd build it around whatever factory load looked best - then I'd handload pretty much everything I put through it from there on out.
At least there's going to be factory ammo (consistent and available) somewhere waiting for you in any country you'd want to take it to on a hunt.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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404
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Reged: 09/01/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Manassas,Virginia USA

Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: tinker]
#148611 - 22/12/09 09:50 PM

I used both calibers in Ruger#1, on a double bear hunt in Alberta this year. I used the hornady ammo on 405 and barnes txs for the 9.3.Great job with both calibers. I would opt for the 9.3 for the extra range, but even with the paper negatives the 405 is a great game getter if used properly and with its limitations allways under consideration.

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: 404]
#148613 - 22/12/09 11:36 PM

The .405, like the .444 Marlin, was made for use in lever action rifles. That required restricting both powder capacity and bullet weight. With a double rifle you can use cartridges that do not have those limitations. In medium bore, the 9.3x74R is one. The 375 Flanged is another. I don't have the talent required to build such a rifle but if I did I would choose the 375. Have you considered that cartridge?

"Although slimmer and less muscular
than its English brethren, the 9.3x74R (left)
is recognizably from the same era as the
.375 Flanged (center) and .375 H&H." - African Sporting Gazette

~

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pajeff
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Reged: 11/02/05
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Metalguy]
#148616 - 23/12/09 12:15 AM

If you are going to the expense of building a double rifle and if you handload, you might want to consider the most potent 9.3- the 9.3X64. I've used it with great sucess; using reduced loads for deer and neck shots on buffalo (bison) and at full loads it is the equivalent of the 375 H&H.The other option- the 375 H&H is a very flexible cartridge,ammunition can be bought in about any sporting goods store, and new Merkel, Krieghoff or other brand double in 375 H&H will probably be cheaper then having a double built.Just some thoughts-

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: pajeff]
#148627 - 23/12/09 03:56 AM

I just had a .405 WCF double rifle made and regulated with Woodleigh 400 grain projectiles at 1950 fps.

You can take that to Africa.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: bonanza]
#148629 - 23/12/09 04:08 AM

Quote:

I just had a .405 WCF double rifle made and regulated with Woodleigh 400 grain projectiles at 1950 fps.

You can take that to Africa.

EXACTLY- I guess since I don't shoot factory ammo in anything but rimfires, I look to a ctgs. capacity and possible bullet weights, which is why I noted in my original post, proper twist rate and throating for shooting a good bullet.

Just because originally it was a lever-gun ctg., it's 2.58" length and use in a single shot give it the capacity of almost a 3" case. People who've done a bunch of loading/chambering/experimentation should understand this.

Bonanza's load puts his .405 double into the .450/400 factory load range of actual velocities. The are no flies on this loading. Is it a stopping rifle - hell now, but it is a terrific hunting rifle. In that calibre, a 350gr. of modern construction still has plenty of sectional density & the capability of being driven another 100 to 150fps. Wonderful gun for all of North America, and much better than the 9.3 on our heavy, dangerous game.

Each to his own - but don't look at poor bullet perfomance in factory ammo in Teddy's day as being the way it is today.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Loc: North of the Columbia, USA

Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: DarylS]
#148634 - 23/12/09 04:38 AM

Quote:

Bonanza's load puts his .405 double into the .450/400 factory load range of actual velocities.

I would think that makes the point about original usage quite well. You must handload the .405 to achieve what the .450/400 does. To make it work out best might also require a different rifling twist and a longer chamber than the 405 was originally designed for. If you want that type of performance why not just chamber the rifle in a round that was originally designed to produce it? I'm not knocking the .405, but if you want .450-400 performance you could chamber for .450-400, use factory ammunition, and still handload to your heart's content.

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bonanza
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Grenadier]
#148643 - 23/12/09 06:43 AM

This rifle was made by lining the bbls of a 20 gauge SxS so the .405 allowed more meat in the chamber. This made for a very slim rifle and only 9 Lbs.

Regarding the 400 grain bullets. I think they will out perform the 300 any day at short range (50-100 yards). The sectional density is a high .338 and I can shoot the great Woodleigh solids.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Grenadier]
#148663 - 23/12/09 12:56 PM

Grenadier, I see your point, however stand by my reasoning. If you want to shoot incredibly expensive factory ammo, by all means do it.

There is the question of brass availability, along with components & Bonanza's point on chamber wall thickness as well.

He could have easily picked a .40-90 Sharps bottle necked or .40-90 Sharps Straight and exceeded the .450/400 handily, but again, the straight '03 diameter case was the better choice for his rifle. Too, he is able to shoot factory ammo if he wants.

I agree the 400gr. is superior to the 300gr., but the 350 is an excellent comprimize.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Grenadier
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: bonanza]
#148665 - 23/12/09 01:17 PM

Quote:

This rifle was made by lining the bbls of a 20 gauge SxS so the .405 allowed more meat in the chamber. This made for a very slim rifle and only 9 Lbs.

Then you had a good reason for going with the .405 and it made sense in your situation. If Metalguy is also lining a shotgun then his chamber choices are similar to what yours were.

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Grenadier
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: DarylS]
#148666 - 23/12/09 01:26 PM

Quote:

There is the question of brass availability, along with components & Bonanza's point on chamber wall thickness as well.

Norma offers .375 Flanged ammo with 350 grain solids and soft points at reasonable prices. Cases are reloadable and bullets are everywhere. But if Metalguy is building a gun that is not compatible with .375 Flanged requirements then obviously it is not an option.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Grenadier]
#148702 - 24/12/09 02:34 AM

I was thinking about this cartridge at one time, but the 9.3 operates at a little bit lower pressure I believe. I do realize that it's the MAP that you have to worry about, but I still would like pressures low. I'll be getting barrels from Pac-Nor here soon, so I need to make up my mind.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Metalguy]
#148704 - 24/12/09 02:38 AM

Pac-Nor barrels are supurb!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Metalguy
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Loc: Northern WY

Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: DarylS]
#148716 - 24/12/09 03:32 AM

They are the only manufacturer in the states that will do a light contour in those calibers. I had heard of them before, but I spoke with John Linebaugh, (of .475 fame), about them. He said that is who he prefers to use. I'm lucky enough to sort of know him, and see him occaisionaly. He is a great resource to have for this project which he offered to help me with. He was really steering me towards the 9.3 round. But, he also said that the 405 would be adequate also.

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bonanza
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Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Metalguy]
#148721 - 24/12/09 04:17 AM

I only use PAC-NOR.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY

Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: bonanza]
#148732 - 24/12/09 07:42 AM

I definitely will from now on. I was mad as hell that all of the other big barrel companies wouldn't even offer a custom shop purchase. I even told them what I was doing. Maybe that is where I screwed up??? Maybe they saw it as unsafe??

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DarylS
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 9.3 vs 405 Win [Re: Metalguy]
#148743 - 24/12/09 11:06 AM

I run 600 rounds between cleanings (no loss in accuracy at that point & no guilding metal fouling) in my .17 Ack.Hornet - Pac-nor are wonderful barrels & I'm running 20gr. Vmax's at 3,925fps.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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