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armbar
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Loc: So Cal USA
Webley as a maker and the Screw grip
      #147641 - 11/12/09 02:09 PM

Gentlemen;

I’m trying to research something that I know people here can help me with. Here it is:

What was the relationship of Webley to the British gun manufacturers? From reading this forum I’m clear that Webley made firearms for some of them. But did Webley actually manufacture the bespoke guns or did they make non-custom guns that would go to a “showroom” somewhere? For instance, did Rigby take an order for a custom gun and just forward the order sheet to Webley?

I’ve referenced three books: “Classic Sporting Rifles” by Christopher Austyn, “The Big-Bore Rifle” by Michael Mcintosh, and “British Gunmakers” by Nigel Brown. In “British Gunmakers” there are eight different “Webleys" in the index! Which one was it?

I’m also interested in the “Webley Screw Grip”. I can find no reference to this. I’ve read about it a number of times here but can’t find anything.

I understand not wanting to type out a bunch of pages just to educate me, (but that’s fine!) Maybe just point me in the right direction.

Thanks all!

Armbar.


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4seventy
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: armbar]
      #147647 - 11/12/09 03:17 PM



Screw grip details can be found here.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=74236&an=0&page=0#Post74236



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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: armbar]
      #147663 - 12/12/09 12:36 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen;

I’m trying to research something that I know people here can help me with. Here it is:

What was the relationship of Webley to the British gun manufacturers?




By the 1890s, Philip Webley & Sons was already the largest gunmaker in Great Britian. After the merger with W. & C. Scott in 1897, they were the 900 pound gorilla of the trade. With respect to long guns, Webley primarily served as anonymous gunmaker to "the trade". Webley stated that 90% of their output in long guns bore the name of other gunmakers.

Quote:

From reading this forum I’m clear that Webley made firearms for some of them.




Webley made guns and rifles for many dozens of gunmakers.

Quote:

But did Webley actually manufacture the bespoke guns or did they make non-custom guns that would go to a “showroom” somewhere?




Overwhelmingly, they delivered the guns and rifles they built for other gunmakers complete.

Quote:

For instance, did Rigby take an order for a custom gun and just forward the order sheet to Webley?




Yes.

I have not researched the shotguns much. A gentleman who has published an article in "Shooting Sportsman" a few years ago. He found that the overwhelming majority of the shotguns were delivered to the retailing gunmakers complete. A few were delivered as proven barreled actions "in the white" to be stocked and finished by the retailer, but this was by far the exception.

My research into the double rifles is a work in progress but is fairly well along. The rifles were numbered separately from the shotguns. Webley's shotgun records survive. Their rifle records do not. Fortunately, the records of many of the retailing gunmakers do survive, and are a great help.

The number of Webley built double rifles that bear the names of other gunmakers rather than Webley's may well be greater than 90%. Given the specialized nature of the product, that isn't surprising. Of the 100 or so Webley double rifles I have written notes on, only four were retailed by Webley.

Further, it's possible to fairly accurately determine which rifles were finished by the retailing gunmakers, and which were finished by Webley (delivered complete). A gun delivered as a proven barreled action "in the white" and stocked and finished by the retailer would obviously have different finish details from those stocked and finished by Webley, particularly so engraving. When a hand made double gun is ready for engraving, it's virtually complete - only engraving, blacking and hardening remain. Would a retailer wish to "buy in" a gun "from the trade" stocked, engraved and finished except for blacking and hardening? No, the cost has already been incurred, so there's no incentive to do so and, by the 20th century, the trade was already avoiding doing blacking and hardening in house.

For example, when you find a Webley PHV-1 double rifle retailed by Webley (bearing the Webley name and serial number), and then find the same model rifles, bearing Webley serial numbers, with the same engraving patterns and finish details bearing the names Holland & Holland, Gibbs, Evans, Lancaster, Lang (the Webley brothers owned Lang), Army & Navy, Alex Henry, Rigby, Wilkinson, Manton, etc. - no differences but the names engraved on them - it's clear that these rifles were retailed only, and delivered complete by Webley. Of the rifles in my database that were built by Webley and retailed by other makers, those that share the same engraving patterns and finish details are about 90% of the total. Also, Webley offered engraving to order - I have a couple in my notes done for Army & Navy that the A&N records show to have been finished by Webley - so not all of these with non-standard engraving patterns, as rare as they are, were necessarily finished by the retailer.

That said, these rifles were handmade, and what was delivered was what was ordered. For example, the PHV-1 was the basic boxlock DR, and was not offered with removable hinge pin or intercepting sears. In my notes are several PHV-1s with removable hinge pins and intercepting sears.

A friend of mine was with William Evans for many years, and said that the old records were contained old correspondence between Evans and Webley that said things like "You've fouled up the Maharaja's stock dimensions again". He said that there was no question that they were only retailing the Webley guns in those days.

Here's a string that I posted some links to photos on - 13th post.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=143415&page=2&fpart=1&vc=1


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grandveneur
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #147665 - 12/12/09 01:04 AM

*

Edited by grandveneur (12/12/09 09:36 AM)


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armbar
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Reged: 25/05/05
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: grandveneur]
      #147676 - 12/12/09 04:32 AM

Thanks 400!

Interesting stuff. How can one determine by serial # if Webley built a particular rifle? And as a collector or buyer does that matter? I would guess not since so many were Webleys.

BTW...just what does PHV-1 stand for? Is that short for something?

Armbar.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: armbar]
      #147679 - 12/12/09 05:23 AM

Quote:

Thanks 400!

Interesting stuff. How can one determine by serial # if Webley built a particular rifle?




Location and range of the stamped number>

Quote:

And as a collector or buyer does that matter? I would guess not since so many were Webleys.




Depends. Being able to identify the trade maker and age is of value. This is especially so if the retailer is obscure. A friend has a London Sporting Park. If you had to go by the name, the gun would be an unknown. It's a Webley PHV-1. Same model that Holland & Holland sold as their own boxlock, and is a great rifle.

Quote:

BTW...just what does PHV-1 stand for? Is that short for something?




My understanding is that it stood for Plain High Velocity, meaning that these were Cordite rifles. The PHV-1 was Webley's basic boxlock nitro DR. The PHV-2 was their basic nitro DR hammergun. The other boxlock rifle was the A & W C model (A & W Cordite). A stood for the Anson & Deeley boxlock patent, and W stood for the Webley & Brain top fastener patent. C was added for Cordite to distinguish this action from their A & W shotgun action. The C action is beefed up for DR use.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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armbar
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #147707 - 12/12/09 11:56 AM

I would guess that Webley is out of business. When did H&H and others go back to manufacturing in house? When did Webley cease operations?

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armbar
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: armbar]
      #147713 - 12/12/09 01:00 PM

This is probably a stupid question, but...P.Webley must be a completely different co. than the maker of this:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...v%3D2%26hl%3Den

As I mentioned, there are 8 different Webleys that I saw in my books. Are they related at all?

Armbar.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: armbar]
      #147874 - 14/12/09 03:40 AM

Quote:

This is probably a stupid question, but...P.Webley must be a completely different co. than the maker of this:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...v%3D2%26hl%3Den




Same company. Webley made over a million handguns in a variety of models.

Quote:

As I mentioned, there are 8 different Webleys that I saw in my books. Are they related at all?




They're all the same company.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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ChrisPer
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Reged: 12/05/08
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: armbar]
      #147931 - 14/12/09 12:19 PM

Quote:

This is probably a stupid question, but...P.Webley must be a completely different co. than the maker of this:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=h...v%3D2%26hl%3Den

As I mentioned, there are 8 different Webleys that I saw in my books. Are they related at all?

Armbar.




That link gave me a fake virus scan webpage with popups claiming I was infected, plus 'Please click to install virus protection'.


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simonsaorsa
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Re: Webley as a maker and the Screw grip [Re: ChrisPer]
      #147993 - 15/12/09 08:15 AM

Also check out " The British Shotgun Vol.2 1871 to 1890" by Crudgington & Baker, "Shotguns & Gunsmiths" by Boothroyd,'Heyday of the British Shotgun" by Baker, not to mention " History of W & C Scott' by Crawford & Whatley. For a succinct note on how Birmingham made guns were sold under their own names by many of the leading London names, not to mention provincial gunsmiths, see p.162 of 'Vintage Guns for the Modern Shot" by Hadoke. Crudgington & Baker are particularly good on patents/new designs, as is Greener in The Modern Shotgun, but he puts his own designs on a pinnacle as he was writing contemporaneously and had his own products to sell.

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