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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Boxlock with Intercepting Sears
      #147598 - 11/12/09 04:45 AM

This subject has come up before, and I've looked for good images of the works of such a thing -- here's a couple shots of a JP Sauer Model 60 that's currently for sale over on the Guns International site







There for all to see, the internal significance of that "extra pin" between the fence balls and the stock wood.
Intercepting sears in all their glory dangling off that extra pin.

Thanks to the seller for the images, check out the link to the for sale ad for other images of the action, barrels, and forend.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #147601 - 11/12/09 06:11 AM



That extra brass pin is also the cocking indicator, correct?

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #147602 - 11/12/09 06:33 AM

The 'extra pin' I speak of is the screw (in double gun vernacular, pin = screw for most purposes) you see just behind the breech balls at the top of the side of the action, above the cocking indicator (it's been engraved with a simple starburst like the pins along the action bar).

The gold dot is the cocking indicator - not part of the sear.

The reason to illustrate this - inside and out - is to show that upper pin (which is visible externally) in relationship to the dog-leg shaped intercepting sears.
With this graphic image in mind, you can identify a boxlock with intercepting sears from a few yards away.
That could be valuable to you at gun shops or shows as you drift through the available stock.
The intercepting sear is not a commonly found feature - and adds greatly to the safety and monetary value of a gun or rifle.


Keep your eyes out for it.
Not all sellers know about this, and there are high-grade boxlock actions out there from (seemingly) obscure makers on-the-rack with lower marked prices than they might otherwise get.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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450_366
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #147605 - 11/12/09 06:59 AM

I think most suhler action bears this feature.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #147624 - 11/12/09 12:09 PM

I paid $250 from Simpson Limited, and my gun came with ALL the parts. I even took it out and fired it exactly how it was shipped to me. This one seems a little high.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: Metalguy]
      #147625 - 11/12/09 12:12 PM

I've seen some pretty amazing deals from Simpson Ltd
Do they have other Sauer mod60 shotguns in stock?



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #147626 - 11/12/09 12:21 PM

To answer my own question --


A Merkel with the same action, tang safety, scalloped action, and intercepting sears -- complete with stock!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #147698 - 12/12/09 10:10 AM

I hauled out my Sauer S/S and guess what? Intercepting sears! Thanks for the tip!

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Metalguy
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: xausa]
      #147704 - 12/12/09 11:03 AM

Mine also!!!

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450_EXPRESS
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Reged: 04/01/09
Posts: 349
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: Metalguy]
      #147733 - 12/12/09 03:52 PM

Had to go check mine. It's a thirties vintage marked August (8) 38. No screw behind the fence, so I pulled the stock to double check. Nope, doesn't have them, bummer.

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armbar
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: 450_EXPRESS]
      #147799 - 13/12/09 07:17 AM

Tinker,

I take it this only applies to boxlocks?

Armbar.

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tinker
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: armbar]
      #147800 - 13/12/09 07:32 AM

Armbar-


There are definitely sidelocks with intercepting sears.
With so many different patterns of side/bar/back/island locks out there, I can't say how to externally identify whether or not a sidelock will or won't have intercepting sears.

This quick 'peek up the skirt' version of ID for the boxlocks is good eye-opener for everyone here who didn't otherwise know what to look for, and what it really means in terms of mechanical function and design.

Great selection-process knowledge for those out shopping!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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armbar
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #147804 - 13/12/09 09:39 AM

Tinker,

Agreed.

That was a good post.

Thanks,

Armbar.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: armbar]
      #147808 - 13/12/09 10:22 AM

Armbar-


Doing my best to stimulate the economy in a 'main street' fashion via boosting possible sales of high-quality used boxlock guns!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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4seventy
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #148283 - 18/12/09 09:32 AM

Tinker,
Thanks for posting those photos. I've always wondered how the mechanics of the boxlock intercepting sears were set up.
Have seen how it's done on sidelocks and even on some trigger plate actions, but this is the first time I've been able to "peek up the skirt" of a boxlock with this system.
Thanks again!

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tinker
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: 4seventy]
      #148305 - 18/12/09 04:34 PM

4seventy-


That external 'extra pin' is the dog's balls!
Especially with this 'upskirt' perspective!!







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #161499 - 05/06/10 09:14 AM

Got this in the PM box this week --


Anyone with more experience inside the guts of german/prussian boxlocks care to comment?


Quote:

Regarding your bringing up, on some German guns, the concept of intercepting sears some time back, got me to thinking. If I am not in error, and I very well may be in error, the picture of German action you had on this website, showing what you were calling intercepting sears is not really intercepting sears at all, but are simply sears with appropriate pivot points (pin you were talking about) to mechanically make it far less likely that they would slip off the tumbler. I believe that "real" intercepting sears are different, usually in pair--two sears per tumbler---and function truly as "intercepting," should one of the pair fall off tumbler. Am I wrong on this?







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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4seventy
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #161506 - 05/06/10 12:38 PM

Tinker,
He could have something there.
It's not easy to tell in those photos.
Originally I thought that those levers which pivot from the top pin or screw, were actually a set of intercepting sears.

I cannot see any sign of the more usual A&D style trigger sears in those photos though, so it is possible that those levers pivoting from the top screw are actually trigger sear levers, and not intercepting sear levers at all.
Would need to see more detail to verify this however.

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450_366
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: 4seventy]
      #161522 - 05/06/10 09:31 PM

Well , im probably demented but on the older ones there is a intercepting sear pivoted somewere up there.

And as i wanted to show but only got newer models in my safe for now, i took one apart, and whtf, theres none of the intecepting sears at all. Instead the safe has a function that engages the sear at the back under the bit that engages the hammer, but nothing that stops the hammer from falling without the trigger getting pushed.

It seems that suhl was getting tired on making guns somewere around the 70s or 80s.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: 450_366]
      #161536 - 06/06/10 01:26 AM

The sear geometry in the photo above in this thread appears to be 'safety sear' engagement, but really - I can't see much of the guts there either.

I don't have a proper example (well, perhaps my waldlaufer drilling...) to strip and photograph for this thread, hopefully someone here with a bit of bench experience on these guns will weigh in and clarify this for us.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
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Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: tinker]
      #161543 - 06/06/10 03:38 AM

Sorry,gentlemen, but these are not intercepting or secondary sears! You are looking at Kerner's improved Anson & Deeley lockwork, adopted by nearly all other Suhl gunmakers after WW1. The original A&D sears, mounted in the lower receiver, have the sear notch very close to the fulcrum of the tumblers. So the cocked tumbler applies a lot of pressure to the sear engagement. This pressure requires a deep, solid engagement which in turn makes it difficult to get a light, consistent and safe trigger pull. So the British gunmakers sometimes employed secondary sears to prevent accidents.
The Suhl gunmaker Kerner found a remedy to this problem. He relocated the sears to the top of the action and linked them on a pin in the top of the body, as shown in the photos. The sear engagement notch is now located at the top rear of the tumbler, as far away from the fulcrum as possible. The improved leverage greatly reduces the pressure on the sear engagement, allowing for decent trigger pulls without compromising safety or durability. Secondary, intercepting or safety sears are deemed unnecessary with this arrangement.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by kuduae (06/06/10 04:18 AM)

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Boxlock with Intercepting Sears [Re: kuduae]
      #161544 - 06/06/10 04:04 AM

Thanks!
So much for the simple "extra pin" identification protocol.
This morning I got my waldlaufer out of the wood and saw the same arrangemnt.
Good to know!


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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