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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Cut rifling Vs Pulled
      #147032 - 02/12/09 02:32 AM

Would like to know peoples experiences with the two. I have bought both, and they are different beast for sure.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147033 - 02/12/09 02:48 AM

Button rifling is usually, though not always restricted to the smaller bores. Far as I know, only Kreiger makes cut rifled match barrels and these are used primarily for long range competition, while about all the rest are buttoned.

Buttoned barrels must be stress relieved due to the induces stress of pulling the tungsten button through them, forcing the metal out to form grooves and lands in a tube that is smaller than the button's dimensions. There's a lot going on. I was in Hall Sharon's shop in Kalispel one day when they were buttoning some fairly soft, muzzleloading barrels. The whole shop was vibrating, which was quite incredible as it was a concrete shop. Lots of stess, but, buttoned barrels are very accurate and with good equipment and a knowledgable 'rifler', good work is done.

The most accurate 100 and 200 yard bench rest rifles have buttoned barrels. They sure look different inside, though. The largest buttoned barrels I've used was a .50 McGowen which would put 5 lead bullet loads into 1 1/2" at 200 yards off the bags - iron sights. My current .45 GM barrel, also buttoned puts 400gr. jacketed into 7/8" for 10 at 100 meters and 5 cast 525's into 1".

My most accurate barrels today are both both buttoned, a .30 and a .17, however I do have a cut rifled .69 that is a 1-1/2 MOA shooter at 100 yards and 1-1/4 MOA at 200 yards, with round balls and express sights.

They're both good. Take your pick - but - for deep grooves, cut is the only way to go.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: DarylS]
      #147042 - 02/12/09 05:09 AM


Cut rifles are very good. However, of the 'buttoned' variety there are two: The standard button-rifled barrel, where a mandrel is simply pulled through the barrel, and the cold-hammered variety - with those, the barrel is hammered into the mandrel, thus forming the rifling in a way that is far superior to the old pull-mandrel method. Some, like Steyr, also twist the entire barrel during that process, adding rigidity. Those barrels are as accurate as cut rifle barrels.


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DarylS
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #147071 - 02/12/09 02:23 PM

Hammer forging is a bit different than buttoning a barrel, as you noted 404Bearlayer. As to accuracy, if properly rifled, they all possess better accuracy than a sporting rifle can show. Unles the sporting rifle needs deep grooves, they are all about par. Muzzleloading rifles of typical deep grooving for round balls, must be cut rifled.

Button rifling is the fastest and cheapest method of rifling, with hammer forging next in speed and cut rifling if a single point cutter is used, the slowest. The hammer mill rotates down the barrel as it hammers the steel onto the grooved mandrel. I'm not sure, but I think the short mandrel moves down the tube with the hammer mill as well. Otherwise, if might be impossible to remove. Not sure about that. Not sure about the twisting by Styer either, but was told the spirals are what is left after the mill runs down the outside in the hammer rifling process. If Styer does twist their barrels, this must be done prior to rifling. They then must stress relieve and anneal (perhaps one step) the blanks, then hammer forge, stress relieve, harden and temper. Perhaps.

CZ (BRNO) also hammer forges it's barrels. There are others. I was told Remington and now maybe Ruger as well was using hammer forged barrels now - but I don't know that for fact.

Any method will turn out a 1/2 MOA barrel on a sporting rifle stock & Mauser action. Some do, some don't. You generally get what you pay for in a barrel, but not always. Sometimes you'll find a gem for less than $200.00.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: DarylS]
      #147078 - 02/12/09 06:52 PM

Quote:

Hammer forging is a bit different than buttoning a barrel, as you noted 404Bearlayer. As to accuracy, if properly rifled, they all possess better accuracy than a sporting rifle can show. Unles the sporting rifle needs deep grooves, they are all about par. Muzzleloading rifles of typical deep grooving for round balls, must be cut rifled.

Button rifling is the fastest and cheapest method of rifling, with hammer forging next in speed and cut rifling if a single point cutter is used, the slowest. The hammer mill rotates down the barrel as it hammers the steel onto the grooved mandrel. I'm not sure, but I think the short mandrel moves down the tube with the hammer mill as well. Otherwise, if might be impossible to remove. Not sure about that. Not sure about the twisting by Styer either, but was told the spirals are what is left after the mill runs down the outside in the hammer rifling process. If Styer does twist their barrels, this must be done prior to rifling. They then must stress relieve and anneal (perhaps one step) the blanks, then hammer forge, stress relieve, harden and temper. Perhaps.

CZ (BRNO) also hammer forges it's barrels. There are others. I was told Remington and now maybe Ruger as well was using hammer forged barrels now - but I don't know that for fact.

Any method will turn out a 1/2 MOA barrel on a sporting rifle stock & Mauser action. Some do, some don't. You generally get what you pay for in a barrel, but not always. Sometimes you'll find a gem for less than $200.00.




As you say the mandrell stays static in the rotohammer as the barrel is pulled thru, but in the end it is let to follow in a bit to get the chamber on the end of the barrel.

Makes one realise how big a hole they have from the beginning, if not wrong the most ordinary calibers up to at least .375 start out as identical tubes.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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sbs470
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Reged: 15/04/04
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Loc: Sheffield Tasmania
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: 450_366]
      #147079 - 02/12/09 09:35 PM



All barrels made by Badger Barrels are cut rifling


good shooting

sbs470


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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: sbs470]
      #147086 - 03/12/09 02:56 AM


Darly,

I agree that every method can turn out very good barrels. Much depends on how proper the various methods are applied, which steel is used, and so on. As for Steyr's twisting of the barrel, I read once about that, but it may well mean that the hammers rotate in a twist patters rather then that the barrel itself is twisted. Whatever they do, I once shot a Steyr P II sniper rifle, and it was an incredibly accurate gun.

It might be interesting within this context to hear from people who have experience with polygonal and gain-twist rifling (not methods of putting rifling in, but rather different types of rifling). I own an SVI handgun in 10 mm AUTO that employs a gain-twist barrel, and it is not only super-accurate, it is also much more shootable as the gain-twist cuts the twist induced sideways movement to the gun to almost nothing. (Gain-Twist means the bullet starts 'straight' and that the final twist is gradually reached towards the end of the barrel)


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DarylS
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #147098 - 03/12/09 10:12 AM

Quote:


Whatever they do, I once shot a Steyr P II sniper rifle, and it was an incredibly accurate gun.





Likewise I had the pleasure to rap off some groups with a Steyr as well. It was very accurate, indeed, with Fed. factory 168gr. Matchkings and handloads, of course.

At that time, I was shooting a full-bore Win. Model 70 Palma which also shot well, with it's probably, buttoned barrel.
Both guns would hold under MOA with 168's shot prone with a sling. That's pretty descent for 'factory' guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: DarylS]
      #147105 - 03/12/09 12:49 PM

Yes,

I had very good results with Federal Match ammo in 168 gr in that gun also. Had about the same results as you with the original factory stock. That broke in half one day after a wild ride on an ATV. I replaced it with a big Lone Wolf stock that I fitted myself and voila, the Federal ammo suddenly shot 1/4 inch, prone, off Parker-Hale bi-pod.

That shows that a good stock, and a good bedding of that stock, is as important as the barrel, maybe even more. I own a gun, a Strasser RS05, which shot absolutely awful when I got it (3 MOA). The barrel in that gun was a non-freefloating design, as you sometimes find it in Mannlicher style rifles. I made it free-floating at first by shaving off all touching parts of the stock under the barrel - shot even worse. So I came to the conclusion that this gun might need a supported barrel after all, but replaced the wood that I had taken off under the barrel with felt, which I glued into the stock in a way that resulted in a very tight press-fit. The idea was to support the barrel, but to let be in contact with a vibration-dampening material rather then wood. The result: 1/4 inch groups with Factory ammo (Hornady) ever since. Hence, this example shows that the stock, and how it interacts with barrel and action, is in most cases the real culprit if a gun does not shoot to its potential, and not the barrel itself.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: DarylS]
      #147109 - 03/12/09 01:48 PM

Quote:

Button rifling is usually, though not always restricted to the smaller bores. Far as I know, only Kreiger makes cut rifled match barrels and these are used primarily for long range competition, while about all the rest are buttoned.




Darryl
doesn't HS Precision make cut rifled barrels? guess I better check out their web site but thought that was one of their claims to fame??

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: Ripp]
      #147111 - 03/12/09 01:53 PM

HS does...see below captured from their web site..

SPR
$2,785.00 Add to Cart
Pro Series 2000 SPR (Sporter Rifle) Built with the All-American classic sporter in mind, the SPR was the foundation of the Pro-Series 2000 hunting line. The SPR Comes standard with a medium weight, nonfluted cut rifled barrel and a detachable magazine system. This multi-purpose gun is great for any type of shooting sport.

thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: Ripp]
      #147130 - 03/12/09 11:32 PM

HA! - I'm losing it, Ripp. Also forgot about HS Precision - there are probably more who cut modern rifle barrels, which is why I noted, 'as far as I know'. I should have said as far as I can remember, so that's Kreiger, HS Precision and Badger.
Badger barrels are preferred (or popular) by most of the long range black powder ctg. shooters, however the Green Mountain .45 barrel on my Sharps is competitive, shooting as well as the 'preferred' make. Any time you get MOA or sub MOA with lead and black powder,(especially with my eyes and iron sights) it's a good barrel.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: DarylS]
      #147201 - 05/12/09 12:14 AM



Krieger, Lilja, Pac-Nor, HS-Precision, Border, Lothar Walter and so on make good barrels. Good receivers can be had by the likes of Kelbly, BAT and so on. If you're on a budget, however, do not get obsessed with the barrel, as there are 'weaker' parts of the gun set-up that have priority: Get a good trigger, like a Jewel or Timney and have a good stock, like a McMillan or Lone Wolf, custom-bedded. The money spent on this will get better results then a cut-rifling barrel with a bad stock and trigger. Something often also overlooked is the scope. The vast majority of scopes will not allow you to shot 1/4 inch or better groups as they are not precise enough. In a German gun magazine, there was a big test to that effect. Only The Schmidt & Bender 'P' series, Swarovski and Nightforce came out perfect in that respect. My personal experience confirms that.


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404bearslayer
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #147211 - 05/12/09 01:41 AM

Forgot one thing:

If money is no object, the best buttoned barrels are made by either Shilen or Hart. The best cut barrels by Border in Scotland. (In my opinion, at least...but their respective records in 1000 yard shooting speak for themselves).


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DarylS
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #147214 - 05/12/09 02:16 AM

Exactly - unless one is desiring a rifle for Bench Rest shooting at 1,000 yards or beyond (indeed, about all .30 cal. military sniper barrels, at least up until recently have been buttoned) the barrels mode of rifling matters not a whit.
Here in North America for varmint, big game and match rifle shooting, barrels made by Pac-Nor are probably the best deal. They run around $220.00US for a stainless, but less for chromemoly.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: sbs470]
      #147227 - 05/12/09 05:46 AM

Quote:



All barrels made by Badger Barrels are cut rifling


good shooting

sbs470




I have set of Badger Barrels blanks in 405win I've been sitting on waiting to build a 405 3.25" wild cat I'm designing. Will give the same performance as a 450/400 but on a slimmer action and lower pressure.

BS-

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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Jeremy
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #148185 - 17/12/09 08:45 AM

There are actually many Match Grade Cut-Rifle barrel makers out there. Many are only know in benchrest circles. They are considered Boutique makers because unlike Krieger they have less capacity and longer wait times. I have Cut Rifled barrels from Brux, Krieger, and Bartlein barrels. All are great, can't say I like one over the other. It is believed (by Cut Riflers) that Cut lasts longer than Button. Also, they say because the button presses the rifling into the steel any inconsistencies in the steel will show were the button ran over (high and low spots). This is why Shilen and Douglas offer different grades based on air-guage results. Cut rifling cuts the steel and inconsistencies are not noticed, because the cut is the same each time increasing in depth.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Cut rifling Vs Pulled [Re: Jeremy]
      #149005 - 28/12/09 05:29 PM

Cold Hammer forged, Cut, and Button rifling depends on who does it as to the quality of the barrel, just like anything else some are better than others no matter the method. Button is the cheapest method, and is standard for all American factory hunting rifles. This method requires a great deal of stress relieving, and there are always two grades for this type of rifling. The off the shelf Wal-Mart hunting rifles use the barrels that are bottom of that line, but are in most cases acceptable for hunting rifles, and will normally shoot better than the guy shooting them.

Real target rifles are normally cut rifling or cold hammer forged. The cut, and Hammer barrels are usually far better barrels that the button barrels, but this also depends on the guy cutting the rifling, or with the cold hammer forged barrels depends on the guy who engraves the reverse rifling pattern on the mandrel. Almost all hammer forged barrels are the same size on the outside but are bored to the size of the bottom of the barrel’s grooves to be formed by the hammering and the steel is forced into the grooves of the reverse pattern to form the lands in the barrel.

Almost all Austrian, and German barrels are cold hammer forged. The mandrel is full length and the hammers are rotary hammers that spiral around the barrel blank and the mandrel which are static in the hammer machine. The mandrel is simply threaded out of the barrel when the hammering is finished, just like unthreading a long pitched screw.

It is not common knowledge, but many of the barrels on some of the most expensive rifles, no matter where made use Cold hammer forged barrels made by Merkel In Saul, East Germany. The hammer forged barrels make the smoothest interior surface, and the whole barrel is much harder, and is only turned to the final shape after the rifling is finished, and then the stress is relieved buy deep freezing, and thawing after the final shape is achieved. The patterns in the early Steyr Mannlicher rifles with the spiral pattern on the outside of the barrel for the first 8" or so was simply left there for decoration, and the whole barrel looked like that before the barrel was turned to it's final shape.

Of course the 1000 yd rifles are very carefully made but they are no in any way representative of normal rifle used for real hunting in most cases, and are specialty rifles used for punching holes in paper targets for the most part. One minute of angle is certainly not TARGET accuracy, and most off the shelf German and Austrian made hunting rifle will do that, and many of the off the shelf hunting rifle made in the USA as well. As I said earlier most rifles shoot better than the guy pulling the trigger.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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