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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Round ball Russian style?
      #146403 - 23/11/09 02:33 AM

I have read about loading round balls with two donut wads to center it.
One on the back and another at the front of the ball.
It is suposed to be the way RB are loaded in Russia.
Have anyone use it?

I ask because I’m working on an article for a gun magazine trying some options for shooting solid bullet from shotguns.
We can buy some brenneke and forster slugs here (Argentina) but the only RB we can get is the .575" muzzleloading.
I think this ball can work on 20ga cylinder and 16ga choked guns.
What about 12ga? It would be difficult to crimp into a 12ga hull except if I can put a donut wad on top.
Any thought would help.
Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: beleg2]
      #146406 - 23/11/09 02:49 AM

Martin- we've been loading 12 bores with round balls using a similar approach but the wad over top of the ball you say the Russians use, if not needed. The cupped wad at the rear centres the undersized ball in the tube as it's being driven down the barrel.

I use a normal folded crimp on my round ball loads, except when using brass cases, which have a heavy handgun-bullet-type crimp to hold the ball.

E-mail Jeff Tanner for any mould size you want. They are not expensive, compared to any other custom mould maker - barely more than Lee moulds & 1/2 the price of a Lyman mould. Lee makes a .690 RB ball mould, btw.

I use .684", .710" and .722" RB's depending on the gun I'm loading for. I use the plastic gas check cut off the bottom of trapsload wads. I puck up wads at the local club, using side cutters to snip off the fingers and shot cups. then, I use normal card and fibre filler wads to the height I need.

Powder in the case, then a hard card or cut-off shotcup gas check on the powder, then filler wads to get proper height, then shotcup gas check, cup-up underneath the ball, then crimp. The cup underneath the ball holds the ball in the middle of the bore as it travels out the tube. Another wad is not needed at the front due to the driving force from behind, holds the ball in the middle of the bore. This is the concept you posted above.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: DarylS]
      #146410 - 23/11/09 03:13 AM

Thanks Daryl,
I been following your posts and I will use this load with some .715" balls I have first.

I will borrow a .715" mold from a friend soon, so I can have enough balls for the rest of my life.

I ask because I was looking for a simpler way to load balls, for those readers that have no access or the willing to buy the correct mold and can use ML balls. I will try star crimp, thank for the advice!
Do you know wich wad works? Winchester AA? I found one thats perfect (we use mosly local ammo and Fiocchi) and I will ask it to a friend that have been shooting pigeon and clays for more than 50 years.

Importing molds to Argentina is very difficult because the way laws are set here.

Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: beleg2]
      #146418 - 23/11/09 03:57 AM

As to wads, Martin- the AA is about the best as to shape of the base, gas check. Some guys, Lyman, for instance, use the wad as-is, with the petals cut off, but this system leaves no method for keeping the ball centred. You would possibly cut the petals off, then put a deatched (petals and figers removed) base cup under the ball, with the ball sitting in the cradle of the gas check. Height is the only problem with this, but might work perfectly, as the ball has less height than the shot column. The 'extra' base wad (about 1/4"high) sitting on top of the AA wad's colum might give the correct height afterall. To get a proper crimp, one needs the correct height - experimentation is generally needed. I find if the wad column is slightly high, or slightly low, is OK. I run the case back into the crimper station to get a nice outside radius on the case mouth. This is less needed on a non-repeating 12 bore, ie: a single, over/under or side by side.

Now, a 3/4" wad punch, easily made from a 3/4" or somewhat undersized 13/16" Inside Diameter pipe, possibly case hardened will allow you to cut your own filler wads from card board or donnaconna house covering.

A .715" ball will be OK and will cast about 545gr. in pure lead and 515gr. in WW metal.

If you can get SR4756, Hodgdon's Longshot, Blue Bot or Herco, you should be able to develope smokeless loads running 1,400fps to possibly 1,600 fps with that ball. These will duplicate the 7 dram HEAVY load for African BP 12 bores mentioned by Greener. I'd have no qualms of taking on one of your buffalo with one, using a straight .715" WW or hardened WW ball.

There was one heavier load for the 12's, a 9 dram load, which would have developed perhaps 1,650fps, maybe 1,700fps but probably the lesser of the two.

BTW - shooting even a 7 dram load of BP in a light 12 bore is memorable - and hard on the stock wood. A velocity duplication load in a modern 12 bore gun, easily accomplished using smokeless powder, kicks only about 1/2 as much as a black powder load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: DarylS]
      #146425 - 23/11/09 05:14 AM

Thanks for the info.
I will sear for those powders but I have Unique and some local shotgun powders.
Im write if I look for a goos 36 grams load?
My gun have 70mm chamber (2 3/4").

Have you try roll crimp with RB? I have roll crimp facilities only.

I measure the barrels:
Right: is perfect, cilinder.
Left: cilinder up to 20 cm (8") from the mizzle, then is bigger (do not know how much) for 10 cm (4") and finally choked for 7 cm (3").

I think it owlud be ok if I enlarge the choke enough to allow my RB pass and probably cut the barrel a little.

Thanks
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (23/11/09 05:16 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: beleg2]
      #146509 - 24/11/09 02:12 AM

If the ball will pass, the wads will also, without damage. It almost sounds as if the left is jug-choked.

All you have to do for a roll crimp, is to bring the ball's height up a bit higher than for a star crimp. The wad column dictates what crimp to use.

Unique is a bit faster than Herco, but not much. I'll look up some loads in my data and e-mail you, Martin.

Do you have AA hulls? If not, what make of American hull can you get.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: DarylS]
      #146647 - 25/11/09 09:58 AM

Hi,
Im back.
Those are the bullets I will try:
Form left to right:
20Ga slug (with double wad, 16Ga into 12Ga.); local made Brenneke; Winchester slug; italian slug (Dangerous game slug); .715 lead ball and .715 steel ball.


A friend offer this wad that looks good. I post a picture of the wad cutted to see it can work.



Im still waiting for the permision to use the gun.
I found that it will be harder to fix the scope as the band is not paralell to the barrels.
I have to file it at angle. More time and work.

Thansk
Martin

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Round ball Russian style? [Re: beleg2]
      #147774 - 13/12/09 01:34 AM


Hi,
I have just get the papers so I will began experimentation.

Daryl,
Can I use pure lead balls?
I read somewhere in the net that it will deform on acceleration.

Thanks
Martin

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