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mehulkamdar
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Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher
      #144764 - 30/10/09 09:59 AM

Some pictures of the latest treasure to find its way into Don S's gunsafe! Don writes:

Attached are photos of my Jeffery takedown rifle built on an Oberndorf Mauser action chambered in 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer. This is something that should please both Mauser and MS lovers. Believe it to be from the early 20's. (can anyone date Jeffery serial #24596).

I would request those with the information that Don is requesting to please post it here. Thanks in advance. And please enjoy these pics!

Good hunting, everyone!

















--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/09 01:30 AM)


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tinker
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #144768 - 30/10/09 10:45 AM

More great stuff from Don.


I have a request and a suggestion.

First the request.
I want to see more detail of the front sight and the hood.

Next the suggestion.
With his incredible pile of high-condition, high-grade rifles Don should have us all out on a hunt with these sweet old time capsules!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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xausa
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: tinker]
      #144785 - 30/10/09 02:49 PM

I believe what we are seeing illustrated is the elusive Lyman 35 receiver sight mounted in place of the bolt stop. Can you confirm this Don?

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RHB
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: xausa]
      #144798 - 30/10/09 10:30 PM

That's a wonderful rifle, Don.

In his e-mail to me, Mehul implied that the rifle is still in original condition. Looking at the finish, I find that very hard to believe as it truly is close to immaculate. Could you confirm whether this is the original finish?

Thanks.

Rustam


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dons
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: xausa]
      #144799 - 30/10/09 10:50 PM

Bill: This is indeed the rare Lyman 35 peep sight.

Rustam: Your observations are correct, the rifle has been totally restored and very well done I might add.


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RHB
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #144806 - 31/10/09 01:23 AM

Thank you, Don and my compliments to the restorer and you.

Rustam


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eljefedouble
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: RHB]
      #144808 - 31/10/09 02:14 AM

Great Rifle, caliber and pics.
I second that request from Tinker!
Thanks, Mehul and Don.

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"


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VonGruff
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: eljefedouble]
      #144830 - 31/10/09 06:52 AM

Simply georgous. It must be satisfying in the extreme to enter you gunsafe and see, handle and admire so many supreme examples of the gunmakers art. Many thanks for sharing these rare beuty's with us Don (and Mehul).
Does the aperture sight replace the bolt stop or is it fixed to it?

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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dons
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: VonGruff]
      #144837 - 31/10/09 08:29 AM

The Lyman 35 peep sight wraps around the stock bolt release and pivots with it. The front sight has a changeable bead similar to the Mauser 22's and has a fixed hood. The barrel is engraved "Made Expressly For W. J. Jeffery & Co. Ltd., 26 Bury Street St. James' London." Also marked "Abercrombie & Fitch Co., New York" There is a trapdoor buttplate. I will try to put up more photos.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #144865 - 31/10/09 02:57 PM

Don,

More pictures mean more to enjoy looking at! I'll happily post them whenever you find time to take them.

This is simply an exquisite piece and I hope you have many more in your collection in the future!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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rigbymauser
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #144907 - 01/11/09 08:48 AM

A masterpiece from Dons..

Nice little action...an intermediate length. I have a 8x57 Model B made on an intermediateaction too..


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: dons]
      #144963 - 02/11/09 08:30 AM

Don has sent the additional pictures that were requested. The more I see them, the more this rifle fascinates! What a masterpiece!

Don should post shortly. Please enjoy the newer pictures.

Good hunting!













--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/09 01:31 AM)


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #145078 - 03/11/09 11:16 AM

Good friend and member here, Ka'imiloa, sends me the following piece from a friend of his who is a Mauser historian based overseas. This gentleman has been following this particular rifle since it was first listed by Cabelas two years ago and his mail is posted verbatim:

It is a Mauser (“am Neckar”*) made rifle, and is one of the shorter (kurz) bodies that were produced for sporting use, based upon the 1898 pattern of body and magazine box. Although some will give you an argument that there are elements of the 1893/95/96 models as well.! For the purposes of nominal description let us use a designation of, a '98 short bodied, sporting rifle, to save confusion.! A simple way of identifying earlier Mauser '88 based bolts, compared to later '93 to '98 ones, is to see if there is a separate bolthead - if the former, and a solid bolt body for the latter.

The German Trade produced all manner of items, utilising many of the parts declared as obsolete, or surplus, by the military - basically because they were cheap and freely available! Many of the bits and pieces that were used in the sporters, were simply lifted out of the parts bins that were in use, or had been used for military rifles, modified and finished to suit whatever was required. This no doubt helped to subsidise the sporting division a great deal.

The Austrian manufactured Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles, were all based upon the German developed Kommission 1888 body and bolt, allied to the Austrian Mannlicher rotary spool magazine system. If the bolt handle appears to be halfway down the forend, it's a good bet you've got an '88 based bolt, if there is a steel spool mag, you've DEFINITELY got a Mannlicher-Schonauer.

At the turn of the 20th century several 6.5mm ctdgs were developed and/or modified from existing case types. The 6.5x54 M-S cartridge was quite simply the 6.5x53R Mannlicher round with the rim removed and an extractor groove cut into it. Everything else, dimension-wise, was the same, and the original 156 grain round nosed bullet continued throughout the entire life of both cartridges.

The Mauser company were chambering several 6.5mm calibres, around 1900, and in the German favoured cartridges, the 'standard' Mauser head size, as used on the military 7.92x57, was utilized as a basis. No doubt due to the popularity of the Mannlicher cartridge, Mauser probably wanted to get in on the action, and offer something of their own that was broadly similar - hence the 6.5x54 Mauser cartridge and the body/bolt/magazine to properly accomodate it. (It certainly makes the .260 Remington cartridge look a bit less 'modern', than most would imagine!)

If you have access to the old DWM cartridge case catalogue, you will see the different numbers that were assigned to the various cases, and this is a very good reference point to utilise, unlike the very confusing and often totally incorrect, "Cartridges of the World"!

It took a law, enacted in 1939, to physically make it illegal for German gunmakers to produce 8 mm rifles that did not comply to the "S" pattern of chamber and bore dimensions, even though the use of such sizes had been commonplace for well over 30 years! A lot of German sportsmen insisted on the 'old' dimensions being used, as they insisted that they shot better and 'harder'. The differences between the 'old' and the 'new' 8mm cartridges caused no problems, or confusion, for the Germans - but the same cannot be said of Americans it would seem!



* Regarding “am Neckar”: Mauser's main works was at Oberndorf, in the Neckar valley, on the Neckar river (am Neckar), in the far SW of Germany. The sporting rifle business was in a tiny little bit of the main plant, and never made much money. The real money came from the massive orders for military materiel, both domestic and foreign.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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dons
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #145082 - 03/11/09 12:45 PM

I probably should have stated earlier that the action on this Jeffery is a commercial Mauser Oberndorf "normal intermediate square bridge" all matching numbered 70278 (1913). From an earlier thread, I conclude that the Jeffery serial number 24596 with Bury St. address indicates a build date between 1923 and 1927. Any additional input regarding the build date would be appreciated.

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tinker
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: dons]
      #145094 - 03/11/09 04:09 PM

My Jeffery 6.5x53r has this type of front sight/hood





Looking at the hood on your rifle, I can see two pins on the image of the right side of the hood.
My guess is that someone has 'permanently' pinned it in place, possibly in the effort of a refinish job.
Your sight/hood might have had the QD feature from the factory.

The forward-facing screw-head doesn't secure the sight blade does it?
I think that on my rifle it has to do with the QD mechanism.
My factory record page is buried in storage right now, as is the rifle.
If I can dig the ledger page up I will compare serial number ranges with you and see if I can assist in getting you somewhere close to a build date.
As I recall, the gentlemen accidentally sent me two pages, one for my rifle and one for a rifle made in the '20s


We shall see...




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/09 01:32 AM)


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dons
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: tinker]
      #145110 - 04/11/09 01:04 AM

Tinker: Had to investigate my sight hood. It took a while to figure it out but the hood has 4 round pins on the inside. To remove the hood, you just lift up the back of the hood (which snaps out of 2 spring loaded detents) and push forward until the front pins slide out of the groove. The screw at the muzzel retains the spring. It looks and operates differently than yours but is definitely factory original. Just a change in the quick disconnect design. Look forward to your ledger info.

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tinker
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: dons]
      #145124 - 04/11/09 04:28 AM

Don-


No ledger info yet, but here's a shot of the front sight on my rifle without a hood.





I'd done a lot of searching around for images of the proper hood for this arrangement as my rifle had lost it's hood somewhere over the years on it's way to me.
Fortunately it's an easy one to reproduce!

If you get the time, please get a photo or two of your QD configuration - with the hood off the sight and the sight without the hood.
That would be great for my archive.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/09 01:34 AM)


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tinker
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher -Pics Added [Re: tinker]
      #145151 - 04/11/09 03:41 PM

From my ledger pages-


SN 22111 - SN 22120 = Build dates October 1910 - November 1910
This was a page full of Leonard-built 12-bores including a very cool sounding 'paradox pattern' set up for 28gr or 34gr Cordite and a Nickel Base 750gr bullet in the 2-1/2" case, weight 7#, 10oz!


Notes I've taken from other conversations noting the Jeffery serial number sequencing have another block of SN (24241-24480) from 1913-1923
That would suggest your rifle was made in 1923 or 1924
A look at the proofs would be helpful.

SNs 25581 to 25590 (yet another ledger page, from another NE member) includes one of his rifles, built in 1939




I'll keep digging, but this gets you close!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinker
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #145170 - 05/11/09 03:05 AM

Thanks again Don

I hadn't seen this hood QD arrangement in detail.
Good to have it up here, as well as the proofs.


















Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (12/11/09 01:36 AM)


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dons
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: tinker]
      #145174 - 05/11/09 04:45 AM

Strikes me as a hell of a lot of machining, fabrication and parts just to simply remove a sight hood. Wonder what they were thinking!!!

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tinker
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #145179 - 05/11/09 06:39 AM

Don-


They charged money for those features!
All of the proprietary sight configuration enhancements added up to pad the bottom line.
If the client had the dough and wanted the special features that was good enough.
One can throw a lot of money at a full set of sights.
Each of the 'hatches, catches, and latches' further set the maker apart from the other makers too.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #145190 - 05/11/09 11:00 AM

Don,

I have an e-mail from Ka'imiloa about the rifle's chambering which I am told is something that there was some confusion about. Ian has been wondering about this and he has sent the following mail:

"I wonder if you might pass a message on to DonS.? I see that he has previously used Cerrosafe, and I wonder if he might pour some into the wee Jeffrey - as it is still not clear what cartridge this rifle is actually chambered for.? !! Don stated originally that it was chambered for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer round - a cast would enable the head size to be established, and a positive ID made."

I am wondering if this might just be a specially rare rifle in an experimental chambering or something like that from Ian's mail?

More and more interesting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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dons
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #145196 - 05/11/09 11:55 AM

Mehul: Here's the story. When I first saw this rifle, it was described as being chambered for the 6.5x54MS by the seller. I wondered if it could possibly be the very rare large ring Kurz action chambered for the Mauser 6.5x54. Sometimes people don't know what they have. Only one of these has surfaced and is owned by Jon Speed. (see page 115 of his first book) With gun in hand, it turned out to be an intermediate action and chambered for the 6.5x54MS. The MS round seats perfectly but the Mauser case is .025" larger in dia. at the base and will not seat. Nothing ventured, nothing gained is my motto. Had it turned out to be a Kurz, it would have been a wonderful and valuable discovery. Even so, I think it's a great rifle and it will stay in the collection.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #145254 - 06/11/09 10:05 AM

Don,

I can't think there's any rifle in your collection that isn't great. Ian was just wondering if this was in the rarer chembering, hence his question. There is no question that this is a spectacular piece of history and a work of incredible art at the same time.

As always, I hope that there will be many more such treasures in your gunsafe in the years to come.

Good hunting, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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gpsb
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Re: Don S Buys a Jeffery TD in 6.5x54 Mannlicher [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #149515 - 05/01/10 04:03 PM

Another beautiful rifle, I will be dreaming of Mausers tonight .

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