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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do?
      #144581 - 27/10/09 10:55 PM

Last week I purchased an LC Smith 12 Gauge Field Grade, Regular Frame. The barrles were cut to 26 inches in years past. The LC Smith has 2 3/4 inch chambers and the wood is without cracks. The screws appear to have never been turned and while the barrel finish is about 80% the receiver has no case hardening left. I own a few different LC Smiths so I'm not new to the problems of stock cracking and the other little things that effect these vinatge doubles. I bought this one for a particular reasonable amount and I don't feel it has much if any collecter value. The gentlemen I purchased it from claimed he was the original owner and said he had the barrels cut down from 30 inches and initially used it for quali hunting. After a long discussion he stated that in 1976 he started hunting deer and that he decided to try the LC with slugs. He stated that with Remington Green Box Standard Slugs the gun shot a consistent 4 inch group at 60 yards. The LC Smith has no sights just a large silver bead. The price was right and he offered to let me shoot it. He retrieved a couple boxes of slugs from the house and out behind the well shed we went. I shot the gun at 25 yards and I must admit I was surprized that the gun placed a 4 shot group just under 3 inches to the POA. We backed up to sixty and the best I could get was about 8 inches, I must admit my eyes are not what they once were and that large bead covered up the entire target at 60 yards. While there the gentlemans grandson walked up and after a brief discussion about the new deer season I asked if the grandson (19 years old) would shoot the LC. He agreed and we cleaned the bores and turned him loose. The grandson shot 10 rounds, and we cleaned the bore after each L/R firing. The result was a 10 shot group that measured 6 1/2 inches center to center, (young eyes, young everything!) Anyway I bought the gun and headed home. Since then I have shot about 40 rounds through it at 25 yards and the groups are good. Much past 25 yards I can't tell where the bead is. My question is should I leave it alone and resolve myself to a 25 yard gun, or attempt to fit the gun with sights and some type of optics. I fair well with optics and use them on my Rem/Baikal side by side rifles but I'm concerned any significant changes will affect the gun as it performs now. Any suggestions would be welcomed. I'm considering this a project gun and don't mind spending the dollars to bring it to its full potential. So, what do you think? As always thanks for any information.

Respectfully
wcf


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? [Re: WCF]
      #144584 - 28/10/09 12:43 AM

WCF,

You should consider drilling and tapping the rib for two 6x32 screws (or 8x32 if there's room), and put on a single Weaver base. Then mount a JPoint sight (http://www.jprifles.com/1.6.1.php). I've had very good results with this sight on a Freedom Arms M83 revolver chambered in 454 Casull, so I think it will withstand the recoil of the LC Smith also.

BTW, one of my favorite guns is the LC Smith my father left to me. Is is a 12 ga field grade gun much like the one you describe. Most of the color case hardening is intact, and there are no cracks in the wood. I'm planning to use it for ducks this year.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? [Re: Tatume]
      #144587 - 28/10/09 02:16 AM

WCF, for what it's worth, last year in Nov I went on a boar hunt in France. I was going to take my Marlin Lever .44 which I thought would be ideal however logistics of getting said rifle into UK then on Eurostar meant it wasn't worthwhile. I assumed that the lodge would have rifles we could use. WRONG. we got battered Russian O/U 12 bores with no sights. It was a waste of time, 13 shooters, 3 brought rifles, they all killed boar no problem. Of the rest of us 2 or 3 had shots at less than 20 yds and scored, all the others went home sans le bacon ! I passed up a shot at 3 good boar since they were 70-100 yds away, with just a front bead and a slug, forget it. I would follow Tatumes' advice and get it scoped with a red dot, a Doctor or some such, then you have a fair chance out to 80-100yds. best, Mike

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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144598 - 28/10/09 04:56 AM

Tom and Mike thanks for the advise. I have a number of Weaver bases in my shop, so I'll give that a try. thanks again
wcf


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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? [Re: WCF]
      #144646 - 29/10/09 12:15 AM

What of the advice I hear about db rifles needing to be regulated with a scope if it is
going to wear one? If this is true, could it also throw up problems for a shotgun?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26613
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? [Re: Paul]
      #144669 - 29/10/09 03:10 AM

Guns with ribs are easily sighted - red dots, scope or irons, my favourite. The scope and irons I've done myself, the scope only for load development, which worked flawlessly.

I used round balls, not slugs with both black powder and smokeless. Smokeless kicks about 1/3 the amount of BP - and with old gun, it's the best choice. My first few shots with 7 drams of black powder and an ounce and an eighth round ball cracked my stock through the wrist, although after being repaired, it stayed together with the same ammo. The equivalent velocity (1,550fps) with smokeless kicked no more than a 2 3/4" magnum shot load.

Shotshell manuals by Lyman of #3, #4 or #5 have data that can be used, or extropolated and worked up to using equivalent powders and wad columns, but be careful but if you haven't loaded shotshells before. In that case I suggest you stick with factory ammo, although it is inferior to a good round ball load. There is a lot of different ammo for shotguns available today, some being meant for rifled shotguns, others for smoothbores or both.

Good loads with round balls or slugs that your gun likes should stay within 4" at 60 yards. Most times a person has to try different ammo to find one that works in that particular gun.

For handloading round balls, if there is a trap range near by, collect a bag of spent trap wads. The ones with the hemispherical gas check on the bottom are the ones you want. Use side cutters and cut the gas check wads off the column and shot-cup. You want the gas check wad, 2 per reload. Buy some fiber wads, ie: 1/2" and you are set for wads for loading round balls. Balls from .680" to whatever your bore size is can be used in straight tubes. Lyman makes a cheap, $20.00 round bal mould in .690" which will work perfectly, or you can do as I did and have jeff Tanner make a few couple ball moulds, ie: .710", .722". About any alloy, like pure lead or WW metal can be used.

The gas checks, one down on the powder, then a filler wad, then another gas check is placed cup-up underneath the ball which keeps the ball centred in the bore during it's trip up the tube. The case can then, if wad height is adjusted properly, be fold crimped over the ball. Lee Shotshell reloading presses will work fine for this (I use one in 16 bore for my Husky's round ball loads with 2 1/2" brass cases) and an old heavy Herters bench mounted press for the 12 bores with plastic cases.

Here's a picture of round ball loads in brass cases for an old Husky 16 bore, the right barrel of which is straight rifled and 13 bore in size. Note the smiddle row of balls is cloth patched. I used undersized balls with a heavy denim patch. This ammo printed the best groups of all at my 30 yard range, all 7 shots going making a 1 1/2" hole, while the bare balls made a 2" pattern - quite suitable though. The gun has a V rear sight, with a bead on the front.

As to regulation, no one can tell what the gun will do, as point of impact may change with any change in loads. It's all part of the gun of developing loads for individual guns.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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50Calshtr
.300 member


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? [Re: DarylS]
      #144777 - 30/10/09 12:40 PM

WCF
I did a similar project years ago and got excellent results, 2.5-3 inch groups at 50 yards. First, do your barrels shoot to their respective sides? Right to the right, left to the left? If so you can bring them together by shortening the barrels (read hacksaw). This reduces the time the slug spends in the barrel as it recoils up and away from center. The effect is the same as if you increase velocity in a double rifle to bring the groups together. I cut my barrels down an inch at a time until I got overlapping groups. This presumes decent sights and a load that shoots well in the gun. On mine I used a Williams sight drilled and tapped onto the rib and a ramp front sight superglued to the rib about 4 inches from the muzzles. I wasn't worried about where they shot, just how they grouped at that point. When I got the overlapping groups I wanted I cleaned it up, correctly installed the front sight and adjusted the rear to get thr POI about 3 inches high at 50 yds. BTW it was great fun to shoot a couple of shots on the public range then whip out the hacksaw and lop off a chunk of barrels and try again. Drew some interedting comments until they started to understand the method to my obvious madness.
On the other hand if the barrels cross ingnore all of the above and just put the sights of your choise on and load some slugs a little slower or use a heavier slug to increase travel time in the barrels and or increase recoil to uncross the groups.
Have fun!
Best.


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