Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop!

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)
Gerard
.224 member


Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 44
Loc: N/A
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #153609 - 14/02/10 04:01 AM

eagle27,
Quote:

monos may actually absorb more heat from the combustion and then pass this through the barrel wall via the point of contact

I considered that after I posted. In fairness, the test I did included only copper drive band monos and standard lead core bullets. I did not include any type of brass mono or copper banded bullets. Maybe that would be a good one to do. Consider however that a finite amount of heat is generated by the combustion process and that some heat is generated by friction as the bullet is accelerated down the bore. A bullet with good thermal conductivity must carry more heat away with it than a lead core bullet. The bottom line is that there are too many variables and only testing with a variety of bullet types will tell the story. Otherwise we are guessing. I can only attest to the experiment I conducted.

JabaiHunter,

Quote:

Bullet makers offer no proof OSR is not possible with their bullets, just the same as owners of DRs with OSR are accused of offering no proof because they can't photograph or measure it.



This is true. So we have to fall back on history and experience to make the judgement call until something better comes along.

I am not sure that everything that is visible can be dimensionally measured. This will weigh and measure dimensionally exactly the same as This. Similarly, I have seen a single piece of steel develop a red cast in the blued finish, with use, due to the particular hardness and temper at that point. Dimensionally there is no change but visually there is.

I have no doubt that OSR exists and, at this stage, the evidence is inconclusive. We do not know if it is caused by a particular type of bullet or whether it may be a particular type of rifle or manufacturing problem that causes it.

But if we have to make that judgement call, how do we do it at this point?

We know that rifles used only with lead core bullets have OSR. We know that rifles that have seen use with some conventional monos have it. I know that, since we have seen drive band monos in use in doubles, the combination of drive band bullet and double has not produced a rifle with OSR. That is the last 14 years. The other way of preventing OSR in a rifle that does not have it, is to not shoot the rifle at all.

Based on the history of what we know at this point, there are therefore two ways of being reasonably sure that a double will not develop OSR.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153612 - 14/02/10 04:18 AM

Gerard-


What experience can you bring to the conversation regarding driving band/mono bullets in older BPE rifles and Damascus barrels?

There are thousands of such rifles 'out there' shooting and hunting - it would be good to hear your perspective on unleaded bullet design and older (pre-nitro era) barrel steels.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27361
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153613 - 14/02/10 05:15 AM

Quote:

by Gerard - We know that rifles used only with lead core bullets have OSR. We know that rifles that have seen used with some conventional monos have it. I know that, since we have seen drive band monos in use in doubles, the combination of drive band bullet and double has not produced a rifle with OSR. That is the last 14 years. The other way of preventing OSR in a rifle that does not have it, is to not shoot the rifle at all.

Based on the history of what we know at this point, there are therefore two ways of being reasonably sure that a double will not develop OSR.



Pretty good summary Gerard.

The propblem with a forum of shooters and gun owners trying to explain what actually occurs and what causes
OSR, is that none of us has the expertise to make any conclusive statement of fact as to what actually happens. That makes all of what is said on here, pure conjecture and opinion. We can ask the right questions, but no one on here ca - based, mind you on experience and observation, but not actual fact. We can ask the right questions but do we get accurate and the correct answers or merely opinion. Opinion, if stated as fact, can lead to civil litigation - another consideration. in my opinion - of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gerard
.224 member


Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 44
Loc: N/A
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DarylS]
      #153627 - 14/02/10 07:12 AM

Tinker,
I dread the day that lead can no longer be used. Life will become more complicated and unnecessarily so.

Logically, if a non lead bullet will mimick the barrel wall pressure and the engraving pressure of a lead bullet, or perhaps lower those pressures, all must be well. To this end, a dual diameter drive band copper bullet would be the only way to go. It would require correct design and good knowledge of the rifling profile and dimensions. There is nothing daunting there, it is already being done for odd and obsolete calibers in double and bolt rifles. The criteria would be that the bullet be able to withstand the spin up torque without stripping the drive bands and be of the correct length and shape to perform satisfactorily on impact. The up side is that fouling will be reduced and consistency will improve. The downside will be cost because lead is so much cheaper than copper. Working lead is also cheap compared to precisely turning copper.

Daryl_S,
Forget about money being the root of all evil. I think that opinion that results from thumbsucking is. I have frequently encountered opinions that are based entirely on folklore, hearsay and "everybody knows". The bottom line is that firearms are engineering solutions and require logic and adhere to engineering principles. Magic plays no role in any solution just because it is a firearm.

The difficulty arises when anyone tries to come to a decision based on the facts at hand. We all do this every day and, usually the facts are adequate. Sometimes they are not and then we have traffic accidents, buildings that collapse, stock market calamities and businesses that go belly up. One of the greatest skills is to learn to how to identify the correct advisor in a given field. And then there are the con men.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153632 - 14/02/10 07:52 AM

Gerard-


I also dread the day that lead can no longer be used as rifle projectile.

Still, the rifles I most enjoy owning and running are the very early cartridge rifles from the transitional period (mid-19th century) such as my 20 and 16 bore pinfire double rifles.

Lead and copper are not the only bullet material choices.
I haven't looked at tin as a material - most of the thought I've (most times just idle thoughts in the background noise of my mind...) had have been around bullet design (such as your driving-band bullet design) more than material.

It appears as if the design formula you're following is one that seems to work - and is something that owner/shooters of vintage Nitro doubles have embraced.

The concern I most often hear from the crowd (with regard to pre-nitro rifles with fluid steel and damascus steel barrels) on projectile material is that the copper (often referenced around jacketed bullets) can prematurely wear the barrels out.
Would this be the same issue with tin in a driving-band design?
At bore-rifle bullet sizes, would the tin bullet be tough enough to do the job..?

Things to chew on for those of us who love our old pre-nitro BPE and pre-BPE double rifles...





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153635 - 14/02/10 08:46 AM

Quote:

I know that, since we have seen drive band monos in use in doubles, the combination of drive band bullet and double has not produced a rifle with OSR. That is the last 14 years.



Gerard,
Now, first of all I'm not saying that your or anyone elses bullets have ever produced OSR in a double, but......
Whether OSR exists with a particular rifle can depend on who has examined the rifle.
The question being that would those people be able to see OSR even on a rifle known to have it?
An owner of a fine double is not going to want to see OSR on his pride and joy, and may well be trying not to see any evidence of it, or hoping none exists.
I think that to declare a barrel set of not showing any visible evidence of OSR, the barrels need to be examined by someone who knows what OSR looks like, even very mild cases, and someone who knows exactly how to find it.
IMO this examination should be done by someone not likely to have any bias toward either the rifle or the bullets in question.
I'm not accusing anyone of a cover up, just that I think some people looking for evidence of OSR may not really know precisely what they are trying to see, and in some cases not wanting to see it anyway.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #153638 - 14/02/10 08:59 AM

Tinker, Another possibility is bismouth alloy for the core or as a casting material. German Silver?

If all else fails, move out of California! There's still some room up here.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: AkMike]
      #153639 - 14/02/10 09:07 AM

No JabaliHunter that was exactly my point of using the analogy with a UFO sighting, just because OSR is visible it does not follow that it is a measurable phenomenon in the physical sense with some form of caliper, gauge etc. If OSR is not actually a physical displacement of metal but only a change in appearance of the metal finish, caused as in the theory I put forward, by heat, then this is only a visual phenomenon and while ‘measurable’ in the aesthetics and possible degradation of the value of the rifle (a consequence you so rightly pointed out), the OSR would not necessarily affect the performance or safety of the rifle in question.

I am only thinking outside the square, not saying that OSR is, or is not, a physical change with metal being displaced on the barrel. It just seems to me at the moment there is a whole lot of assumptions and accusations being made based on a visual appearance of some double rifle barrels, unless as I said earlier I have missed a post where someone has actually measured a displacement of metal or can actually feel the displacement of metal by running their finger over the surface.

If my theory was proved correct then it is maybe something owners of doubles would have to put up with if wanting to, or having to, use mono bullets.

Of course there is the other issue which has been bought into the argument, and that is the top and bottom ribs and other fixtures coming ‘unstuck’ on the barrels. I don’t think this issue is necessarily new though and have even seen it myself on old shotguns. Again it is easy to make assumptions even here such as proposing the modern loadings of hard lead or steel shot and plastic wads, could be the cause of a greater occurrence of this happening (if indeed there were greater occurrences happening , I don’t know).

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: eagle27]
      #153647 - 14/02/10 12:08 PM

I disagree, although I take the point about UFOs! For example:
If OSR is a dimensional change, then some kind of micrometrology co-ordinate measuring machine might be able to measure it. This is a computer controlled device that measures the physical geometry of an object using, for example, an optical or standing wave probe. It can measure in microns (1/1000mm). There may be other more sensitive devices.
If OSR is a change in colour or appearance, then that must presumably be caused by either a physical or a chemical change, in which case it could still be measured by, for example, a mass spectrometer, which can be used to analyse the elemental and molecular structure of an object. I'm sure they tried to teach us about those in Chemistry lessons at school!
I'm not suggesting that such measurements are practical however, just theoretically possible.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1184
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #153660 - 14/02/10 03:24 PM

Yep Jabali agree with everything you said but as OSR is supposedly damage to the barrel caused by a dimensional change (so it seems everyone is inferring or saying as a fact) I was really inferring that a colour or appearance change was not measurable dimensionally or as I put it, in the physical sense although as you then quite rightly put it, even colour changes are in some way measurable.

Gets confusing when using all these terms. I guess what frustrates me a bit in this thread and the previous one on the subject is that nobody has said (to my knowledge) that they can run their finger over the barrel surface and 'feel' OSR. Just like the ubiquitous UFO, it's all just visual until someone grabs hold of one and can say for sure they are real objects.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Gerard
.224 member


Reged: 12/06/05
Posts: 44
Loc: N/A
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: eagle27]
      #154528 - 23/02/10 02:48 AM

Tinker,
I have no idea how tin would react to being fired from a barrel but the terminal ballistics would not be good. As a material it is much too brittle. It cannot be drawn and would have to be cast. The melting point is very low, around 230C. Lead is a good 100C higher than that. Current prices per lb are about US$1.00 for lead, US$3.00 for copper and US$7.60 for tin.

4seventy,
Quote:

Whether OSR exists with a particular rifle can depend on who has examined the rifle.

What puzzles me about OSR is that it is more difficult to see than what general wear and tear seems to be. There also seems to be no evidence that any particular type of bullet causes OSR. It has been seen on rifles that have fired some monos and it has been seen on rifles that have not fired monos.

Does anyone know when OSR was seen for the first time?

If it cannot be dimensionally measured then it is a cosmetic affliction, the same as a scratch or dent on the stock or barrel. Use it often enough and it will happen.

If it can be dimensionally measured, is it of a greater magnitude than normal wear of the lands and grooves? That can easily be measured and I often do so to tailor bullets to the bore of odball sized barrels.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40296
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #154875 - 26/02/10 05:02 PM

I've re-examined this thread and deleted out all the crap.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40296
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: peter]
      #154902 - 26/02/10 10:07 PM

Quote:

gerard

i made my order in may 09, saying that i would love to buy some bullets from you for testing in a few of my older rifles, it were a purly personal idea that i wanted to see if your statments were solid.
We are now in feb. 2010, i have still not seen any bullets from you, although i wanted to BUY them from you, this could give me the idea, that you really dont want them tested by me at least, so please stop rattle your saber about you being wronged and you guy's are pure as snow, when you dont even put forward an effort to get independent testing on double rifles, i have a few doubles that i volentered for this test, but no bullets yet.

9 months in waiting, and you call out 400NE about a few weeks waiting period.

please tell me, where i made my mistake, i actually tried to make this test private untill the results were done, but this is never going to happen is it ?

peter



Well Gerard Schulz has "left the building" (and forums) so Peter don't expect an answer to your bullet order being 9 months and waiting ... undelivered ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: NitroX]
      #154913 - 27/02/10 02:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

gerard

i made my order in may 09, saying that i would love to buy some bullets from you for testing in a few of my older rifles, it were a purly personal idea that i wanted to see if your statments were solid.
We are now in feb. 2010, i have still not seen any bullets from you, although i wanted to BUY them from you, this could give me the idea, that you really dont want them tested by me at least, so please stop rattle your saber about you being wronged and you guy's are pure as snow, when you dont even put forward an effort to get independent testing on double rifles, i have a few doubles that i volentered for this test, but no bullets yet.

9 months in waiting, and you call out 400NE about a few weeks waiting period.

please tell me, where i made my mistake, i actually tried to make this test private untill the results were done, but this is never going to happen is it ?

peter



Well Gerard Schulz has "left the building" (and forums) so Peter don't expect an answer to your bullet order being 9 months and waiting ... undelivered ....



Maybe Peter can start a bunch of threads around the internet demanding an answer. Then ridiculing those who know about the order.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #155480 - 04/03/10 04:52 PM

You are correct but what seems a contradiction is simply my not making myself clear in my post.

I have not had a GS Custom in my hands That was included in my recommendations simply based on the design being the same as the North Fork. All mention of measurement has to do with the bore, and groove measurement of the barrels on the rifle. The North fork I have on hand, and have used them in my rifles. The GS Custom is exactly the same design where the bearing surface of the bullets is concerned. That is the only important thing to avoid OSR. SO being of the same design, and the same basic material as the North Fork, was the reason for my addition of them. However I have since seen pictures of one GS Customs that showed the rifling had indeed engraved the solid body of the shank,IMO. Gerard doesn't agree that the shank is engraved in those pictures however, and that is his opinion as well! (I was asked to modify this post in regard to the afore mentioned bullets causeing OSR in a Double rifle) The bullets he posted to me were not the one I saw. I do reccomend GS Custom bullets as long as the barrels on a particualr double rifle's barrels are slugged to be proper dimentions. The design is a good one.That doesn't apply to all Mono-metal bullet designs or materials!
What I said about using only bullets that I have had in hand in rifles that I have had in hand wasn't made clear in that post. All mention of measurement is of barrels, because modern bullets are consistent IMO, but double rifle barrels are not. Any design that has wide BANDS and where the rifling engraves the solid shank between the Bands, or pressure rings is a poor design IMO.

Sorry about the mix up but it certainly was simply a poorly structured sentence.

In any event, there will be nothing further on OSR from me here, because it seems people have their minds made up, and repetition will not change that fact!

...............................................

Edited by DUGABOY1 (05/03/10 11:44 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #155494 - 04/03/10 07:58 PM

Quote:

what seems a contradiction is simply my not making myself clear in my post.




Well, I don't know, I thought what you had said was quite clear. This was that you had personally used and or examined in your own hands, GS and Northfork bullets, and found them to be safe in double rifles.

Quote:

As far as certain companies products, as I have said on many occasions, I will only reccomend those that I have personally used, and/or examined in my own hands, for hardness, measurement, and design. In that light the only ones I have found to be safe in a double rifle of proper dimentions, and the two I have listed repeatedly, are the North Fork, and the GS CUSTOM.




Then you completely changed the story by saying you have never used them and never even had them in hand.


Quote:

Gerard,I have never used a GSC bullet in anything! That is not because I think they are somhow enferior to any other bullet of similer design, but that I simply have never even had one in my hand.




To add further confusion to this, some time back in another thread you said that you use GSC bullets in ALL your rifles including doubles.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....=true#Post85349

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27361
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #155510 - 05/03/10 04:14 AM

Interesting twist in the thread. Must be synthetic.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 370 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 41522

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved