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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
SPR 220 12 ga paradox
      #143995 - 20/10/09 08:03 AM

Hello All,

Bought a SPR 220 12 ga 2 3/4" 20" with screw in chokes.
Added the 45-70 conversion tubes.
Made a rib and ramp and added Dakota express rear blade and Marbles green optic front sights.
Lots of cheap fun.

Live in a shotgun only area of the state, so bought 2 rifled extended tubes.
Voila ! a 12 ga Paradox for under $400.

Shot Federal copper plated HP Sabot slugs, shoots them well but 1" low at 15 paces.

Tried Remington copper sabot slugs (PR12CS), all four keyholed at 15 paces.
Tried and old box of the Remingtons (PR12RS) shot straight, ie round hole.

Did a search and found that Hastings would void your warranty on the old Remington's (PR12RS)

Any theories ?
Are the new slugs smaller bore size ?
Is the velocity too high for the 1:36" choke tubes ? (1450 fps)
What is the velocity on the (PR12RS) slugs ?

Thanks
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: nitro450exp]
      #143996 - 20/10/09 08:05 AM

I thought the Remmy slugs had a plastic wad that surrounded them.

It could be a number of reasons but lack of stabilization (and all that goes with it) is probably one big reason ?

Edited by 500Nitro (20/10/09 08:06 AM)

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143997 - 20/10/09 08:20 AM

Yes they do have a Sabot that is very similar to a shot wad.
Cupped base with four fingers, same wad in the older Remmy's.
Only differnece in appearance is the newer copper slug is more pointy and smaller HP.

The Federal's use a 2 piece sabot that holds the hour glass shaped slug.

Thanks

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: nitro450exp]
      #143999 - 20/10/09 08:25 AM


Then I would say the more pointy shape makes the bullet unstable - or not able to be stabilised.

Sometimes a short flatter meplat can make a bullet
easier to stabilize. Look at the old paradox bullets,
short stubby nose point on a long bullet
- even though it looked like a cotton reel !!!! LOL

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Rigby62
.224 member


Reged: 06/10/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Quakertown, PA
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: 500Nitro]
      #144003 - 20/10/09 10:32 AM

Looking at the copper solids I wonder if the wading (sabot) is tough enough for the rifling to really grab. It might be just sliding across the rifling. If the rifling in the choke tubes is similar to others its not very deep and its hard for it to gab and stabilize a slug at full velocity. All my attempts at getting slugs to shoot through a rifled choke where dismal. The fact you got the Federal slugs to shoot is encouraging and I would adjust the sights for them.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: Rigby62]
      #144013 - 20/10/09 01:34 PM

I shoot .684" or .710" (whatever's handy) round balls in my Mossy (3 1/2" chamber) with a plastic cup-wad underneath the ball using 2 3/4" hulls and a descent load of Herco. The velocity is 1,600fps and it punches single holes, about 1 3/4" to 2" in diameter for 5 shots at 30 yards. I could increase the velocity, ie: power, with longer hulls, but the load I'm using duplicates or slightly betters the African 7 dram 12 gauge load listed by W.W.Greener. It's enough for me, here in Canada & is easy to shoot with very reasonable pressure, under 11,000psi - apparently.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144049 - 21/10/09 03:26 AM

You are correct the rifling is not very deep, but I did recover 3 wads and they all showed evidence of engaging the rifling.
I was unable to recover any of the Federal Sabots.
The trajectory info on the Remmy boxes show two very different stories, I suspect that it is all about velocity.
I will just have to breakdown and shoot a few over the chrony.
I may try the managed recoil Remmy's ( 1200 Fps ) vs the "Magnum" loads ( 1450 Fps )
The problem is they are so damn expensive, $18 for 5 slugs thats almost as expensive as my 450NE and 470NE. I wish I could just Hunt with my DR.

Thanks for the input so far.

Regards
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144105 - 22/10/09 03:04 AM

Nitro450exp - why can't you hunt with your DR? They're OK here - or are you talking about shotgun-only areas?

RB's are easy to load, Jeff Tanner makes any size you want and trap-wads are free for picking them up at local trap ranges. Cut the base wad off and there's a gas check and cup-up ball centering wad for the ball. Merely use whatever in-between fiber wads that are necessary for getting the proper crimp height for a star crimp. Even a lee loader makes good RB ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: DarylS]
      #144145 - 23/10/09 01:54 AM

Daryl

In the state of Michigan they do not allow Rifles for deer hunting south of Flint.
Approx middle of the State, which makes little sense.
Used to be you could not hunt from an elevated blind for rifle season,
but the changed that, so most people are shooting at a downward angle.
But the old law is still on the book's only shotgun ammo south of Flint.

I am a cartridge reloader but have never tacled shotshells.
The RB idea interests me but I don't have time to invest in another reloading dicipline.
I will try the remmington managed recoil slugs and some of the winchester sabot slugs, look very similar to the federal's.
In all the hunting on my property, I have never needed to shoot more than 15 yds.
Thick woods and well defined deer runs.

Thanks
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144151 - 23/10/09 02:36 AM

At that range andout to about 50 yards, more with many smoothbored shotguns, about any cheap 'foster' type slug will work just fine on deer. There is no need for sabots or any other fance, expensive factory ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: DarylS]
      #144152 - 23/10/09 02:49 AM

Daryl,

I do also have a set of IC chokes for this gun.
You are correct rifled slugs ( I like the Brenneke ) will do just fine at most ranges 10 - 50 yds.
I was hoping that the faster sabot ammo, that is on the market would work.
Thus making this "Paradox" a fun toy for lobbing mortar shells at other critter's
(Groundhogs, yotes ) ( 50 - 150 Yds )
It seems that the paradox idea is really limited to approx 1200 fps with sabots in this gun.
What kind of velocity are you getting with RB's ?

Thanks
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: SPR 220 12 ga paradox [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144277 - 24/10/09 02:50 AM

RB's from the 12 bore run to 1,550fps with black powder, sometimes just over 1,600fps with smokeless powder. Black Powder to 7 drams (191gr.), smokeless, use SR4756 or SR7625 and start around 25gr. and work from there. I've not used Blue Dot in the 12 bore, but have used the SR's as well as herco, which is just a bit slower than Unique.

One could start with H4227 or IMR4227 at around 50gr. with RB's in a nitro-proofed gun. Wads or wadding is needed to fill the space required to obtain a proper crimp, roll or folded. I use a folded crimp with smokeless loads, normally.

Normal Parodox Gun velocities I've seen in print usually run below 1,100fps for regulation. This, presumably due to the light weight of Paradox guns and heavy bullets. Heavy bullets at low speeds cause incredibly high trajectories which cause misses and wounded game. Any range past point blank becomes very difficult. At 1,100fps, with a 10" or more trajectory over 100 yards, the heavy slugs have no real point blank range. Round balls weigh less and if can be made to regulate, will give a better account of the gun on large game. The 7 dram charge mentioned above, will give a point blank range of 110yards, where the ball is no more than 1-1/2" above nor below the line of sight. Put in a 2" number, and zero for 90yards, and that PB range extends to about 125yards.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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