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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Rigby62
.224 member


Reged: 06/10/09
Posts: 12
Loc: Quakertown, PA
12 Bores
      #143489 - 11/10/09 02:17 PM

I know from reading DGJ for the past 15? years that 12 bores came in a wide verity of power levels. From what I understand chamber length, weight and twist can help determine what to load it for. Can you guys that have 12 bores please share pics and what load it was made for. Any configuration, fully rifled , paradox or smooth bore. Thanks

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27322
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 Bores [Re: Rigby62]
      #143502 - 12/10/09 12:46 AM

In a 12 bore smooth double, I've used 115gr. 2F, 150gr. 2F and 191gr. 2F, all with a .690RB held centred in the cup of a plastic wad's gas check, cup end up and sitting on the over powder wad.
The 150gr. and 191gr. loads match loads listed in Greener's book for BP 12 bore ammo - except my ball size probably differs. These loads can be used with any ball size, btw as long as it isn't oversizwe for the gun.
I suggest the 191gr. load, 7 drams, isn't for 7 pound guns. Kicks a bit for those and is hard on stocks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: 12 Bores [Re: DarylS]
      #144116 - 22/10/09 12:38 PM

I am going to make one soon (I hope)
English Stalking rifle 12 bore. Fully rifled. I will either do it in Rigby style of Purdey style. It's one I have the parts for, but so far I have not found any spare time. Maybe in the next 2 years.

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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: 12 Bores [Re: szihn]
      #144499 - 27/10/09 01:34 AM

In the 70"s I owned a Holland and Holland 12 Bore full rifle with 24 inch barrels that weighed 16.5 lbs. I bought it from Safari Outfitters who had just imported it from India. The double rifle was in it's original case and looked virtually new. It had the original bullet mold and various accessories. The charge engraved on the side of the double rifle said 10 Drams, case lengh 4 1/4". The charge card that was original in the case also said 10 drams 4 1/4" case. I wrote Holland and they said it was an experiment made for the Nawab of Bhopal and could find no other 12 bore 10 dram rifles. I only have one fairly poor picture of the rifle in it's case. Unfortunatly I could not afford to keep it and sold it in the late 70"s. WISH I HAD IT BACK!

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27322
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 Bores [Re: 8borerifle]
      #144501 - 27/10/09 02:03 AM

I've heard of 9 dram 12's, but 10? WOW and 16.5 pounds.
Steve - it will be a beautiful rifle, for sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 12 Bores [Re: DarylS]
      #153431 - 12/02/10 12:47 PM

Daryl_S and Guys,
All of this wonderful talk is making me want a double smoothie...something like a 20 ga so the other family can shoot it too. I'll check around to see what I find. I was given some brass so would try my hand at reloading them. I reload now, so will pay close attention to the advice on shotgun shells. I now understand from your writings that a ball would be the best projectile to use, and will pick up a good shotgun reloading book and read the posting to work up some loads. I only plan on shooting larger hogs at a friend ranch in Texas, so the 20 should be plenty good for that. Do you have to work up loads like you do for regulating a DR? MY 45-70 DR that I bought a month ago shoots fine so far with factory 405 grains, so I am not worried about that gun. I'll take any adice you care to offer.
Thank all!!
TC

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 12 Bores [Re: Tallchief]
      #153438 - 12/02/10 02:21 PM

Tallchief-


This reaction you're having -- it's completely natural (and your dna has been banked in our servers...) for you to pursue the ownership and exercise of a bore-rifle.


Go get it!






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27322
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 Bores [Re: tinker]
      #153481 - 13/02/10 01:37 AM

Tallchief - you may be saddled with load development to get the barrels shooting the way you want, maybe not.
Good luck - chopping the tubes just behind the chokes is a good idea - it allows almost a full bore sized ball,which should be around .615" - rather than having to use an undersized ball.
The undersized balls still do just fine for accuracy, though. Wads (cupped), of course will have to be purchased along with the fiber wads, unless there is a skeet range near by where people shoot 20 bores. O'course a bag of 250 is not that expensive.
Jeff Tanner will make you any size mould you need- for about $38.00 including shipping - payable by pay pal or to a California account.
Lee makes moulds in .600" and .610" I think and is the way I'd go for now. Either will work in a cylinder or improved cyl. 20 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 12 Bores [Re: DarylS]
      #153511 - 13/02/10 09:03 AM

Thanks guys for the helpfull information and clearity of my DNA problem....I have been wondering lately what the heck is wrong with me, I just thought it was old age(65), but, after shooting my DR, things somehow look very different.....I even found a perfect condition 9th edition of .W.W. greeners book on the "gun and its development" quite a compendium of information....Willlet you know what I find in the way of a good 20 ga. candidate.
TC

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 12 Bores [Re: Tallchief]
      #153515 - 13/02/10 09:59 AM

Tallchief-


Something I learned with distinction in the biotech industry is that the effect of 'genetics' is a nature AND nurture proposition.

Certain ramifications of genetic 'programming' require stimulus from outside the constraints of essential gene code in order to attain 'expression' of a 'genetic trait' so to speak.



For instance, you might have the genetic wiring to be driven completely out of your gourd by red-headed women.
Chances are you'd be able to maintain a completely sane and solid demeanor through your lifetime - save for some or other type of contact with red-headed women.

Catch my drift..?









Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 12 Bores [Re: tinker]
      #153596 - 14/02/10 01:31 AM

Tinker,

Not too sure about the redhead, mine is a beautiful brunnett who shoots a 45acp colt gold cup better than most folks, and even shoots my DR a bit, so that part is well contained (DNA wise) still workin on the smoothbore thing in my head. There is no good reason I need one, but then that is why we do the things we do......There sure is a lot of forum information to contend with,most of it informative, but often a little hard to follow....cup up, wads...push...and stuff like that I never had to contend with in the other reloading I do...This is going to be fun.....now where is my computer link page that I save last night???
Thanks Folks...a lot!!
TC

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27322
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 Bores [Re: Tallchief]
      #153607 - 14/02/10 03:23 AM

Hey TC- how about this, in order from the primer up the case, looks something like this if: %is powder; = is wads; ( and ) are cup up and cup down, O for the ball; then ] for the crimp.
So - a case disected looks like this from the base wad forward:

%)=(O]

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 12 Bores [Re: DarylS]
      #153622 - 14/02/10 05:57 AM

Ah, that makes perfect sense now. I am only begining to realize the different things one must know about shotgun reloading...like cushion,vs burn rates etc. .. none of which have to be taken into account for regular rifle reloading except burn rate......

Be patient , I m am going through a pretty big leaning process that all started with nitroexpress.com, and then the purchase of my first DRall in one year.

Thank you!!
TC

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27322
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 Bores [Re: Tallchief]
      #153717 - 15/02/10 03:11 AM

The cup wad that is cradling the ball, holds the it centred in the bore during it's trip up the bore due to pressure of accelleration - ie: G-force. This will also prevent the undersized ball (which causes no leading) from spinning in the bore which causes it to take on a wild flight before travelling a descent distance. The faster you drive the ball, the longer it's 'accuracy range' as the farther out it gets before taking on a spin and curving off the path of the sights. My own double would hold in about 8" at 100 meters, 12" offhand, which I considered it's maximum range for moose and about 75 yards for deer.
The ball is large enough and heavy enough, it doesn't need to be harder than WW metal, and indeed, pure lead can also be used on our ungulates.

As WW ball, about brinel 12, will bust both shoulders of a large Canadian moose, and stop underneath the hide off side. If only one shoulder is hit, or no shoulder, it is likely to exit. They do not have to be harder, which makes casting easier.

Jeff Tanner (UK) will make any size ball mould you want - for around $40.00 US shipped. My last one (recently) cost $38.00US.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 12 Bores [Re: DarylS]
      #153755 - 15/02/10 07:32 AM

daryl,I found the tanner web page, and as soon as I cut my barrels will measure them, and get a mold made, Thank you for letting me know about him.
Where do I get the wad/cups for loading round balls?, and I assume since I want to load in brass shells that the loading data I find will work for them.

I found a good used MEC shotgun reloader yesterday at my local pawn shop, and he told me I could get different sized parts and dies for my 20 gauge reloading.

I thought I was alone in my thinking a smooth bore could be used, then I read a lot more to find that many shooters/hunters have been doing do for over a century, and with gret success. I hadn't considered that a shotgun was really a lower pressure sxs musket of sorts, and they have been in use for over 300 years. This should be quite fun to work up a good combination between gun and loads, much more so that my other rifles and pistols.

Stay warm up there!!
Thanks, TC

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27322
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 Bores [Re: Tallchief]
      #153843 - 16/02/10 02:39 AM

Wads are available from Circle Fly (the wad maker) or from Trackofthewolf.com. I order specialty wad sizes from Track. If using brass, you'll have to measure the Inside Diameter and buy wands accordingly. With plastic hulls, you can use 12 bore wads. I pick up cases by the hundreds at the local trap club - free, and throw them away after one shot when using black powder. Fiocci and Fed. low brass blue coloured cases (not Blue Magic) have a separate plastic base wad and straight sided walls which work well with the fibre and card wads. Some cases, such as AA are tapered inside and wads become more difficult.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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