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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore
      #143158 - 05/10/09 12:36 PM

Mine is a BITCH to load. I have to hammer the ball down. What thicknes patch do you gents use?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: bonanza]
      #143194 - 06/10/09 01:53 AM

1st thing to do is to measure the groove diameter and get a mould that casts a ball .005" to .010" smaller than the bore.
2nd is to use pillow or mattress ticking or 10 to 12 oz. denim in the .020" to .025" thckness. If the rifling is very shallow, a ball .010" smaller than the bore will be just fine. I definitley would not use a smaller yet ball, as they will not be as accurate. The larger the ball you CAN use, the more accurate it will be.
3rd is to radus the crown of the muzzles. ALL production and most custom rifles have muzzles that are too sharp and are difficult to load.
use 320 emery between the end of you thumb and the muzzle's crown and rotate, turning the barrels every now and then. If the muzzle's crown has angles already cut, then about 5 minutes per bore is all that's needed.
You can also use a tapered wooden plug, or tapered gringing stone for an eletric drill. Wrap the embery around the stone of wooden plug and rotate that in the muzzles. Finish with your thumb as that adds a smooth radius and leaves no sharp angles that grab patches and cut or push up ridges on the ball when loading. The small angles swage the ball & patch together into the rifing. I use a .684" ball in my .69, with a .025" patch and have no difficulty loading.

With a very tight patch on a long jag, try 'flitzing' the bore. This will not hurt the rifling, but will polish the bore nicely. Flitz polishing compound is easily available most everywhere. It is more aggressive than JB, and quicker to use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #143209 - 06/10/09 09:18 AM

I had the same problem. I use a plain old 2" round flannel cleaning patches lubed with Bore Butter. Real black powder doesnt burn through them. Mine regulates perfectly with 120 grains of Goex ffg.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: degoins]
      #143218 - 06/10/09 12:20 PM

My balls are .715 which leave onlt .005 for the patch. Maybe I'll try a paper patch.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: bonanza]
      #143247 - 07/10/09 02:52 AM

The paper patches, ie: ctgs. work well, BUT - they will foul the bore after a given number of shots. The have to be a very snug fit int he bore, and the bulk of paper must be compressed between the ball and the powder charge to seal the powder gassses behind the ball.

A .715" ball, in a .720" bore would leave only .005" clearance in a smooth bore with barely any compression. Since the gun is a rifle, you have to measure the groove diameter, side to side, then subtract the ball's diameter. We usually load for from .005" to .010" compression of the patched ball in the bottom of the grooves, not the bore.

So - if the bore is .720" and the rifling is .006", the rifle has a .732" groove diameter. .732" subtract .715", leaves .017" for patching, or .0085" per side. This thin a patch, even up to .015" is too thin as they don't carry enough lube to keep fouling soft. So - best to go with a .710" ball for the Pedersoli's shallow rifling, and an 8oz. denim (.017" to .019") patch. .710" + .018" = .018" = .746", which gives .007" compression per side in the bottom of the groove. This load will seal, even with heavy loads. Use pure lead only. If wanting to use harder lead, you'll have to go to a smaller ball and a thicker patch.

For example, in my 14 bore(.690"), if I want to use a WW ball, I either have to use a paper ctg. or a 15 bore(.675") ball, which is .015" smaller than the bore. Not much, but it's enough. I use a 12 oz. denim patch, the same as I use with the .684" ball, which measures .025" using the mic. Patches are reusable if re-lubed - mink oil, bear oil, marmot oil, spit, or any other good lube.

Moulds of any size are available from Jeff Tanner, in England. google; tanner moulds.

For an idea on muzzle crown, you could go to the picture I posted in the .62 Jaeger thread. When they look like this, they are much easier to load with descent ball and patch combinations, which shoot accurately, and shoot cleanly, with no wiping needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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451whitworth
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Reged: 30/11/07
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Loc: MO, USA
Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #143408 - 10/10/09 08:24 AM

i use a .715" from a Rapine mould in my .72 Kodiak with .015" patch. before i funneled the crown like Daryl suggested i had to use a .010" patch to load it. i have measured three different .72 Kodiak's and the bore was .724"-.725" on all of them. groove was .734"-.735". i made a short starter on the lathe with a .650" diameter as most on the market are for .50- .54 cal guns. this and Daryl's crown makes a tremendous difference in ease of loading.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: 451whitworth]
      #150020 - 10/01/10 02:30 AM

Guys, let's see come pictures of your doubles.

I just aquired one, a Kodiak .58 - re-crowned it, lowered the hammers by shortening the nipples to curl the fence properly. I didn't have to cut the hammer noses more deeply as that was well done already - but is a possibility. I filed out the material of the breech plug that raised up behind the nipple seat which created a cup. A cut there is not correct for the design which should allow water or foreign material and cap flash to blow down along the fence. What I ended up with, was a more pleasing shape and improved function, overall. I had to grind a bit on the tumbler to allow the hammers to throw farther forward and also to remove a tich of wood in the right lock inlet so the main spring wouldn't split the wood as it moves slightly below the lock plate. I got the left one perfect and didn't have to remove any wood in it's inlet.

I also blued the lock plates and hammers, tang and pineaple finial ahead of the trigger guard. by rubbing the bluing in hard, it changed the colour of the bright shiny steel quite nicely. I am now happy with the 'trade' I made.

I also re-finished the stock but only 4 thin coats of a mix of tung oil and varnich, called "Circa 1850 Danish Oil". It hardens a bit more and is more water repellent than "Circa 1850 Tung Oil". I'll put on a few more coats after I shoot it today. This oil also hardens faster, more like True Oil in application.

Note the roughness of the bore - looks as if the reamer they used before rifling, hadn't been sharpened in 4 years. This is pretty shabby, but it doesn't foul- 50 shots each bore without having to wipe. I'm currently using a .562" ball with a .022" mattress ticking patch. Easy loading with the 3/8" rod after short starting the ball and patch down 5". This guns seems to regulate quite well - will range test on paper today

Here are the muzzles of my .58 Kodiak. I initially used the RCBS neck chamfer tool with emery on it for the initial angles, but the reamer cut through and cut a grouve around the crown on one barrel. This was smoothed and doesn't harm accuracy at all. I picked up a package of angled stones for the electric drill and with 320 grit emery wrapped around the stone, re-did the crowns, finishing with crocus cloth around the stone, then my thumb as normal. The 'groove' looks bad, but is actually quite smooth and is more of a visual thing than functional. It is less deep than it appears - too much light does that, I guess.

It worked just fine.







--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (10/01/10 02:39 AM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #150034 - 10/01/10 03:41 AM

Daryl-


What's the powder charge where the rifle is hitting properly to the sights?


Have fun with that thing!!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: tinker]
      #150211 - 11/01/10 11:50 AM

Well - that's hard to say. I tested it yesterday on paper, and due to the wind blowing, had the devil of a time. I shot enough at 50 yards to show good grouping form each tube - approximately 7/8" 'on centres' groups for each barrel, but positioned 1/2" apart and with the right barrel printing 1 1/4" higher than the left barrel. They were crossing - dammit. At times with the wind shifts, I got caught and threw the shot out by a good 2" or more to the left. It was blowing a gale, switching often and not keeping steady. I'll have to re-sight, obviously, as the tight grouping happened in a fairly steady cross wind from the right. The wind switched to f6 o'clock, blowing my hat off as I fired. These 2 balls with the wind at my back ended up over 2" higher than the previous grouping. I guess this shows the amount of wind that was blowing.

100gr. 2f loads were crossing by 1 1/2 to 1 3/4"@ 50 yards, while dropping the charge to 82gr. (3 drams) brought the crossing down to 1/2" - usable I guess. I actually thought it would go the other way, with the extra recoil opening up the crossing, bringing the tubes in line with a specific load. More testing is needed, of course. It seemed to me that less powder made them cross less (made the barrels shoot farther apart - the opposite of what one wants in a hunting rifle. I would rather have the rifle cross with light loads and shoot parallel with a heavy charge.

As-is, it's useable for deer or black bear with the piddling 3 dram load but I prefer more powder for larger animals. 3 drams barely gives 1,400fps.

I need to spend another day or two at the range with both 2F and 3F and will do that this coming week.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #150220 - 11/01/10 12:37 PM

Daryl,
Good to hear your rifle shots fine!!
If you want some more wind, you better come to my home.
Two days ago we get some 70Km/H (44mph) wind all day and a week ago some 107Km/h (67mph) drifs. LOL

I had to increase my charge to "uncross" my barrels.
Im using 109-115 FFFg now with 460gn REAL but I have not tryed RB too much, probably next time, I have to try some slugs in my scoped DB 12ga first.

You should check your sight, my rifle have one barrel shooting higher until I found that the sight plate was not leveled with the barrels. When I straight it it shoots almost leveled.
Im not shure but it looks like right side of your sight is lower than left, that is consistent with R barrel shooting high.

JMHO
Martin


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tinker
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: beleg2]
      #150225 - 11/01/10 02:08 PM

Keep it lit Daryl!


Looking forward to seeing how you sort it out.
On the vertical difference, Martin might be on to something.

You could always hold it like this...







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Sarg
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: tinker]
      #150229 - 11/01/10 02:53 PM

You know I read some where that was (or close to) how they shot Howdah's in the big calibers , recoiled across instead into the head ! ?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: Sarg]
      #150300 - 12/01/10 04:09 AM

Tinker and Sarg - interesting movie hold, but innacurate shooting will result, of course. At 5 feet, it wouldn't make much difference. I know we did good shooting at 10 to 25 yards, upsidedown prone during training. I'm not sure why we did that.

Martin - I'll check the sights. I am thinking of installing a locator stud (or 2nd screw) into the rear or front of the rear sight base, to lock the base straight down the rib. As-is, there is only one centrally located screw to hold the sight to the rib and hold it straight, with a rounded base to sort-of fit the rib. I don't like this. It really needs 2 screws.

Next time out, I'll try different charges, of course as I think it should shoot farther apart with more powder as well. It's supposed to be warm, just above freezing all week, but of course, it's really blowing hard today - too hard to shoot on the open range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
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Re: Pedersoli kodiak express in 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #150344 - 12/01/10 09:49 AM

Dang - got mixed up in these multiple threads. Sorry. I've a targer from Saturday to post in the Paper Ctg. thread.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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