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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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bwananelson
.400 member

Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: 458ONLY]
#148195 - 17/12/09 11:35 AM

458only i just bought a CZ is yours cross bolted mine is not,did you bed it or was it done already.scoped or open sighted i am thinking a rear peep.after the sabatti bull crap i want to try the 416 rigby in cz and 505 in cz all for what i would pay for one sabatti,hum......

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: bwananelson]
#148196 - 17/12/09 11:55 AM

Hi Nelson,

I'm quite happy with my Ruger #1 rifles in 458 Win Mag & 375 H&H. I also enjoy them chambered in 7x57, 223 (1V), and 270 (Intl.). Ruger chambered the 416 Rigby at one time; a friend of mine has a nice one. If you want to try some of the large calibers, the #1 is a good platform, and as reliable as they come.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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bwananelson
.400 member

Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: Tatume]
#148201 - 17/12/09 01:25 PM

i have the upper 450 400, 470.375,9.3x74R,45 70, now the 458 win.the 416 would fill a nice gap and the 505 would be a nice upper end since it looks like the 600 sabatti is dead

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
#148207 - 17/12/09 01:55 PM

Quote:

Winchester's mod 70 was a full length 375 H&H action anyway, so that case could have been used, with no problem. The reason the 500 gr bullet was used was because though they knew the speed wouldn't be there in the 22" barrels of their rifles,

The .458 Win Mag was introduced in 1956 in their CRF Model 70, which later became known as the "pre 64".
These did not have 22" barrels. They were 25".
AFAIK 22" tubes didn't appear on the Mod 70 .458's until '64 or later, on the push feed Mod 70 action.

Quote:

On the side of Winchester, they didn't experience the failures that happened in the field. That is because they were using 30" test barrels and shooting fresh ammo at their plant.

I'm curious to know where this information came from, ie the 30" length being used for testing.
Thanks

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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: 4seventy]
#148297 - 18/12/09 02:57 PM

The universal receiver ( a heavy duty single shot, lanyard fired, with a quick disconnect barrel arrangement) is the standard machine used for proof testing ammunition in the ammo makers labs. And the standard barrel length for the universal receiver is 30 inches. In the past the barrels were fitted with a copper cylinder system to indirectly measure chamber pressure. (the machines are now fitted with piezoelectric transducers.) Copper cylinder crusher method could give inconsisitencies, as the copper cylinder was crushed by a steel piston that pierced the chamber wall. After firing, the length of the compressed copper cylinder is measured, and the pressure required to do this is either calculated or read from a "crush chart". Just think how accurate the pressures are if the wrong alloy copper was used!! This is why you will see CUP listed in the pressures for the old system, such as 54,000 CUP. It is not the same as a true PSI reading. CUP is Copper Units of Pressure. True PSI is generally thought to be more than CUP, so our 54,000 CUP might actually be 61,000 PSI or more.

Way back when the 458 was developed, CUP was used, so who knows what the real pressures were? Could have been lower or higher than reported. Using the universal receiver and the CUP system required a substantial amount of operator skill. Something like not properly cleaning the chamber and the steel piston would give incorrect numbers.

So this is why many of the published velocities for ammo are higher than what we mortals obtain with our chornographs. Longer barrel generally equals a higher velocity, but not always.

Note to handloaders: If using old manuals, be aware of the CUP listings, the manual should explain this.

Edited by Altamaha (18/12/09 03:02 PM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: Altamaha]
#148310 - 18/12/09 06:59 PM

Yeah, I understand the crusher pressure measuring system, and CUP vs PSI etc.
The Poms also used a copper crusher system, but they located it at the breech instead of through the chamber wall.

The main reason for my question about the 30" test barrel is really related to whether the velocity for Winchester factory .458 ammo was quoted as from a 30" barrel, or was it recalculated down to the 25" length of their Model 70 rifle barrel?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: 4seventy]
#148313 - 18/12/09 07:40 PM

Quote:

Yeah, I understand the crusher pressure measuring system, and CUP vs PSI etc.
The Poms also used a copper crusher system, but they located it at the breech instead of through the chamber wall.

The main reason for my question about the 30" test barrel is really related to whether the velocity for Winchester factory .458 ammo was quoted as from a 30" barrel, or was it recalculated down to the 25" length of their Model 70 rifle barrel?

Would you use the lover velocity when advertising?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
#149055 - 29/12/09 02:46 PM

Quote:

On the side of Winchester, they didn't experience the failures that happened in the field. That is because they were using 30" test barrels and shooting fresh ammo at their plant.

Well, I looked into this one, and, like so many statements aimed at the 458 WinMag, it appears to be incorrect.

The Rifleman's Rifle, by Robert Rule, considered to be "The Bible" concerning the pre '64 Winchester Model 70, states that testing ammo for all (Mod 70) calibers, (velocity pressure and accuracy) was done with 26 inch test barrels.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: 4seventy]
#149057 - 29/12/09 03:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, I looked into this one, and, like so many statements aimed at the 458 WinMag, it appears to be incorrect.

The Rifleman's Rifle, by Robert Rule, considered to be "The Bible" concerning the pre '64 Winchester Model 70, states that testing ammo for all calibers, (velocity pressure and accuracy) was done with 26 inch test barrels.

---

That has always been my understanding as well.

I was told once and read once, that one of the problems early on for the .458 besides the horrible bullets initally used, was that the machines rotating the powder filled brass would catch and spill a portion of the powder out of the brass before the bullet was placed --not sure how valid that is/was..but that is another piece of info I had read...

Personally have a .458 also and do NOT have a problem reaching 2200 fps with 500 gr bullets..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: Ripp]
#149073 - 30/12/09 03:55 AM

[quote Personally have a .458 also and do NOT have a problem reaching 2200 fps with 500 gr bullets..

Ripp

Nor did I in my .458 WMag, capacity ctg.(.458 Alaksan = rimmless .450 Alaskan)

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bigmaxx
.375 member

Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: DarylS]
#149074 - 30/12/09 04:10 AM

Ever considered reaming her out for .458 lott?

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One day at a time...

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458ONLY
.224 member

Reged: 20/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Ontario, Canada

Re: 458 Winchester Magnum Question [Re: Ripp]
#149082 - 30/12/09 08:18 AM

[quote

Personally have a .458 also and do NOT have a problem reaching 2200 fps with 500 gr bullets..

Ripp

Couldn't have said it better myself!

It's also true about the "spill" problem. A former employee of Winchester, who was involved in identifying and solving the problem (after several years!)has revealed that in writing when there was no chance of repercussions from Winchester since they no longer exist as a company... (in name only they exist).

It's also NOT true that all companies used 30" test barrels! Few, if any, do that today. Mostly 26", or 24"... and in some situations it's 22".

True, the CUP method was flawed... and it has taken too many years to figure out an equivalent pressure in PSI, or even what 53,000 CUP represented in PSI (piezo). Today, it's something like 62, 500 psi. That's MAP (maximum average pressure) which means that an acceptable load would have that average. That could be, for example, a low of 60,000 and a high of 65,000 psi. Loads for a Big Bore, like the 458WM, rarely vary more than 2000 to 3000 psi with the best modern powders. My loads vary less than that.

The problem for Winchester, in the early days, was the powder they used, plus the equipment that was not suited to loading ball powder. That's been resolved long ago. The best powders for the 458WM today are ball powders, which are greatly improved. The best powders for the 450s and 500s are AA2230, TAC and H335, all ball powders. 2200 fps can be efficiently achieved with any of them employing a 500gr in a 24" barrel, and in some cases a 22".

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

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