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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery?
      #139193 - 18/07/09 05:30 PM

G'Day Fella's

After discussing various .404 Jeffery reloading details with Von Gruff, I recently started looking for a Cast bullet mould for the .404. (one local option is www.castbulletengineering.com )

After a while, the thought came to me that this would (???) make for a good opportunity to Paper Patch .416" (.417") Cast Bullets and then load them in the .404 Jeffery?

Not wanting to reinvent The Wheel, I wondered if any of you knowledgeable gents have had any previous experience with this combination???

HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Con
.333 member


Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Homer]
      #139200 - 18/07/09 09:39 PM

No experience ... but it'd be cheaper to have a local engineering firm make a swage die and take down cheap 44/40 projectiles to 0.423".
Cheers...
Con

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Con]
      #139203 - 18/07/09 10:33 PM

No experience with that specific caliber either, but a custom die from LEE costs a whopping 25 samolians and is easy to use.

As for paper patching, I've found about .010" is a good target increase. An increase from .416 to .423 might work, but would be on the thinner end I do believe.

The easiest solution {paper patching works GREAT but is time consuming} to obtain cheap plinking bullets is probably to simply get a heavy .44 Mag cast bullet, i.e. a .300 grain or so, and size in the LEE die to groove depth or .001 to .002 larger as long as your case necks have enough expansion. You could use the same die to size down .44 Magnum jacketed bullets, too. .429 to .423 for jacketed should be easy.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139204 - 18/07/09 10:43 PM

You can easily paper patch .416" cast bullets, smooth or grooved, for the .423" goove diameter barrel.

As 9.3 suggested, the Lee sizer die would be necessary for reducing them to the correct size.

Full power loads can be used with paper patched bullets of WW or slightly softer metal.

The paper patched bullet needs to be lubed first, before running it through the die. Polishing the die first with Flitz or auto polishing compound is a good idea. Shove them up through the die nose first.

Doing this for this particular calibre is no different than for any other.

Oh yeah - no crimps as that tends to cut the paper and then lead the bore. A very sight taper crimp might work, but best to have no crimp and use a slightly faster powder. Velocities might be as much as 100fps faster than equivalent loads in jacketed bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
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Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: DarylS]
      #139228 - 19/07/09 02:44 PM

Hi Hommer

Presume you already have a .416 mould? I have not got into paper patching but found when using cast bullets in my .404 the plain based bullet from the mould I had made did not perform so well. Applying a shoulder to the base and crimping on a 44cal gas check really did make them perform. If you go down the way of getting a mould for either .416 or .404 I wouldn't go plain base.

In saying that, it is easy enough to convert to gas checks if the plain base does not perform. I also like to crimp my cast loads if hunting with them and as Daryl points out, crimps and paper patching won't go well together.

Interested in any trials you do.

Cheers
Eagle

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: eagle27]
      #139273 - 20/07/09 02:39 PM

G'Day Fella's

Thank You- Con, 9.3, Daryl S and Eagle 27 for your input on this subject, it is very much appreciated.

The main reason that I want to go down this road is, Cause I'd Like Too!
Financial concerns are not a factor in this, although throwing Woodleigh's down range for Non-Safari related practice, would just be a waste of good $ and product. I just like to mess around doing Technical related things.
If I'm going to purchase one mould (404), I'll get the other (416) and cast up both ("Gas Checked" of course, thank you Eagle 27), for a try.

I was just inquiring as to other "Nitro Expressers" existing experience in this field and in particularly, with the 416-404 combination. The ability to run softer Cast bullets at Jacketed Velocities sounds like a bit of all right to me! All though, poor old "Skippy" might not think so!!!

Since first thinking of the above, I have also seen possibilities with Paper Patching > .277 to 7mm, 8mm to .318 AE, .318 AE to .338 and 9.3mm to .375 ???
There are a number of other possible combination's also but......

I've done some looking myself. So for those that may be interested, check out www.castboolits.gunloads.com (Yes, that is how They spell it???), then scroll down to "Paper Patching" then click on and read the bit on "Paper 101" and the others for a very detailed insight into this subject.

Thanks again.

HooRoo
From
Hommer

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Con
.333 member


Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Homer]
      #139274 - 20/07/09 03:34 PM

Hommer,
Ross Seyfried wrote an article about patching 0.308" to 0.318" many moons ago ... may pay to chase up the article.

Whilst it's fun doing stuff because it's there to be done ... perhaps consider chucking Bertram's 404s downrange (checked last night and he makes a 400gr) when you want to save some money over the Woodleighs.

Casting, patching etc is fun ... if you have the time for it. Oddly ... tends to be the retired mob that do it most!But if I ever build a 404 rifle ... I'll be drawing 44magnum projectiles down for my plinkers, then sucking it up when chasing deer and using the Woodleigh's etc...
Cheers...
Con

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Con]
      #139276 - 20/07/09 04:14 PM

G'Day Con

Thanks for the tip on this paper patching info, I'll see if I can chase/Google it up!

Funny you mentioned resizing .44 Cal bullets down to .423".
Cingiale, dropped around the other night for a chat and a beer and we swapped some yarns and some bullets. Cingiale gave me some Hornady .44cal 300gr XTP bullets (re-sized to .423") and I will give them a blast asap.
I imagine they would be dynamite on Pigs and they will probably turn Goats, inside out. I'd like to try a "Calender Shot" on a Goat with these bullets, just to see what will happen!!!

I'll make up some .423" Forming Dies for this, some time and have a play myself. I have to make up a .424" or .425" (?) sizing die for my lube-resizer, so if time permits.....

HooRoo
From
Hommer

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Homer]
      #139283 - 20/07/09 10:50 PM

Hommer, see my first post.

I have lots of experience sizing jacketed bullets DOWN and can recommend it 100%. Way easier and less troublesome than patching UP.

I have paper patched as well but it is IMO a very time-consuming activity and tho I, too, enjoy the technical end of things just for their own sake, a pain in the neck. I'd rather size down than patch. Others enjoy patching for its own sake.

Seyfried recommended rolling the jacketed bullets under a file to roughen the jackets so they would hold the patch.

Regardless, you'll need sizing dies and I can heartily recommend Lee dies. The .429 down to .423 {or whatever, slug your bore and check neck relief first} should be a snap, no problem at all and with that you can size jacketed or cast bullets. You may find for cast that .001 to .002 shoot better, so you may be into it for two dies. Order them both at the same time; $50.00, still less than 1/2 the price of a Ch4D die. Good shooting and let us know how it pans out, patched or cast!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Homer]
      #139284 - 20/07/09 10:53 PM

The heaviest cast bullets I'm aware of for the .44 are 340gr. and they aren't common.

Veral Smith will make you any bullet weight mould you want, however there is an advantage to shooting paper patched bullets. There is no velocity limitation and no leading with proper loads. Too, with a paper patched bullet, you can make the bullets as hard and/or brittle or as homogenous as you want. In the lower velocity relms, pure lead with just a touch of tin works fine, too, yet are ductile and don't break up.

Plain-based bullets can usually be made to shoot well with the use of a heavy card wad underneath the bullet. We've even seated gas checks upsidedown underneath the bullet with good results.

Annealed and re-sized, .44 revolver and rifle gas checks will also be useable in the .404.

There is no comparrison between shotoing jacketed and cast. When all is said and done, cost wise, cast is always cheaper considering the very high price of bullets. A mould can be free after as few as 100 bullets have been cast.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: DarylS]
      #139346 - 22/07/09 05:21 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Thank you again for your input of knowledge and experience into this subject, I really do appreciate it!

9.3, Thank You for the tip on the Lee Sizer Die deal as it is a good one but I have most of the equipment and material in my workshop, so just like making Cast Bullets, I like to do that part of it myself as well.
It's not so much the money but more the amount of time it takes to organize and then get someone else to do it. In the time it takes to arrange for it to be done, I can already have it half done.

I made up a .4246" diameter sizer die and bullet pusher for my RCBS Lube-A-Matic yesterday and when I get the bullet mould's (I might also get a Blank mould and have a Play), I'll then make a top punch for it and get casting, sizing and finally "Burning Powder". I miked up the 404's bore (Douglas Premium) the other day and it came in at 0.4236" diameter, hence the sizer die diameter.

Daryl, Thank You for the tip on the Heavy Card Wad and Upside-Down Gas Check idea. If I can't get the thing to shoot, I'll give them a try. I imagine, if I make up another top punch with the right OD and a taper on it for my RCBS L-A-M, I will be able to press the .44 cal gas checks into the sizer die and resize them to suit the 404 (if required), prior to crimping them onto the cast bullets?

HooRoo
From
Hommer

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: Homer]
      #139358 - 22/07/09 11:09 PM

.44 mag gas checks - pour into a small tin box and heat the box to red heat, then dump into water to anneal. Yeah- sounds wrong but the result is annealed gas checks. They'll form well to any size & remain that size instead of springing back a few though after that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: Loading .416 Cal, Paper Patched Bullets in the .404 Jeffery? [Re: DarylS]
      #139379 - 23/07/09 06:39 AM

I have not had a problem using the 44 cal GC for my 404 as they crimp and size easily in my .424 die. No need to anneal. The only problem I had was when I heat treated a 90% WW/ 10% lino bullet and found the heel to hard to crimp the GC on in the Lyman lubrisizer. I ended up using a .429Lee push through dis first then re sized in the .424 lubrisizer die for a trouble free and workable sizing operation.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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