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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139107 - 17/07/09 11:05 AM

I didn't see a price for a Greener Empire anywhere.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
      #139109 - 17/07/09 11:17 AM

I didn't see a Greener Empire anywhere.

Seriously, I think the problem here is that these guns must be common in Oz {?} and maybe elsewhere but certainly not here.

Back to the duel;

Anybody have an idea as to the strength of the suggested Greener and a Baikal?

Reason I ask is that IIRC we've seen discussions here that suggest the Baikal should not be used for heavy nitro rounds, yet the Greener seems to be suggested as an option. I have no dog in this fight but am very curious just the same.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139111 - 17/07/09 11:23 AM

The Greener will handle NitroforBlack loads
in 577.

The gun of Marrakai's was sent to england for proofing
and passed.

And of course the Greener's passed Shotgun proof when they were made.

Edited by 500Nitro (17/07/09 11:23 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139115 - 17/07/09 11:56 AM

Quote:

The Greener will handle NitroforBlack loads
in 577.

The gun of Marrakai's was sent to england for proofing
and passed.

And of course the Greener's passed Shotgun proof when they were made.



500: What are the pressures generated by .577 NFB loads?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139117 - 17/07/09 12:15 PM


Not sure, I'm not a proof expert.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139120 - 17/07/09 01:21 PM

Something worth keeping in mind is that" you cant make strawberry jam out of pig shit"

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139122 - 17/07/09 01:42 PM


Several have been successfully built - I'd like to see them
after a few years of solid shooting.


Re the Water table, it's not just the water table / action length but the greeners are a bigger action overall - by about 3mm if I remember correctly.

All this makes a difference in the long run IMHO.

Short stubby actions flex more than long action with big breech faces.

To use an example, H&H DR's went to a reinforced action
- not for looks, because they needed to.

The British guns are well proofed and last years,
can't say some others would - Baikal ?????

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9.3x57
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139142 - 17/07/09 10:55 PM

Moving off the trail here a bit, let's assume a guy doesn't have access to a Greener and doesn't want a Baikal, what's next?

Anybody care to toss out a list of common shotgun actions on a scale of strongest to weakest?

Seems like the Greener and Baikal get mentioned alot, but others must be or have been used to build DR's, yes?

This whole "building a nitro express DR on a shotgun action" topic fascinates me mostly because I'd never do it, personally. I can't see going to all the effort, expense, etc to build a gun that has a Question Mark stamped right next to the caliber designation though I love to read about those who do. As said before, we all have our lines in the sand. It is a very interesting endeavour that sure seems to spark an abundance of emotion from the supporters and detractors of this action and that.

Some of the guns built are very nice looking, though I always wonder how many rounds of this or that case charged with Nitro powder they'll take before the owner can swipe a credit card between the bbls and the breech face...

I wonder if a list of common actions/strengths could be hashed out for those admittedly intrepid few who seek fame and fortune building these rifles. Seems like the list would be fairly long for BPE, get shorter for NFB and finally be very short indeed for NE.

Stick an arbitrary price limit of, say, $1,500 for the actions?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139144 - 17/07/09 11:01 PM


I wouldn't build a real big bore in a NE Calibre.


Are you sure that people don;t mention Baikal's because
they are cheap as opposed to any other reason ?

After all, SOME of those who want to do this seem to do it
because they "think" it is cheaper than buying one.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139145 - 17/07/09 11:09 PM

I have an old Sauer with a Greener style crossbolt that would probably be ok to use for a conversion .
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: prof242]
      #139148 - 17/07/09 11:38 PM

Quote:

As a follow-up to my rifled choke question, of the inexpensive 12ga SxS's on the market today, which of them would you consider a good candidate for making a fun 12 bore slug gun? I'm interested more in longevity, value for dollar.



Prof242 is building a 12 bore slug gun for pig shooting, not a nitro or nitro for black Express rifle.

Any 12 bore double of ordinary strength will suffice.

We know that a 3 1/4" case full (140gr.) of 2F BP in .50 shooing a 500gr. bullet will produce 'around' 30,000PSI - A.Arms did the testing, and a .50 2 1/2" case with a 450gr. and 90gr. 2f will produce 28,000PSI - again, A.Arms did the testing, while the short 2 1/10" .45 case shooting 70gr.2F and a 500gr. bullet will produce 22,000PSI. The .45 x 3 1/4", with 120gr. 2f and a 500gr. produced some 32,000PSI for them.

I am not a pressure expert either, but can extropolate trends.

I know from experience that a 1900 era fairly light double 12 can handle a 500gr. round ball and 7 drams of 2f BP and that the pressure generated is slightly less than a modern Trap load (11,500PSI), which is the same as a 2 3/4", 3" or 3 1/2" magnum fired in suitable chambers. It is not the pressure alone that 'springs' actions.

The Baikal or BRNO, or even cheaper Spanish or Steoger double 12's will meet the criteria for the initial post.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
      #139151 - 17/07/09 11:59 PM

Daryl, you are right. The post isn't about NE actions, but I thought the questions were interesting since the original thread asked about actions in regards to their strengths. Sorry to head Off Topic here.

As for BP loads in a "cheap" shotgun, I'd be a little more concerned about the stocking up on the gun, weight and quality of fitting {to avoid cracking under heavy recoil}. Pretty much any good-condition, smokeless shotgun ACTION seems appropriate for BP RB shotgun loads, yes?

And yes, the Stoeger's are cheap and fairly common unless the Cowboy Action crowd has sucked them all up in a particular neck of the woods.

500, as for why people go for the Baikals, or at least mention them, I think, is twofold. YES cheap, but really, they are the only dirt-cheap DR action floating about. I suppose most folks think that if the gun is built to handle .30-06 factory {or other modern rifle cartridge} loads it can take "X" NE round. As I understand it, however, the backthrust is NOT the same as the case size increases, meaning that a heavy, say, .577 NE load, even at somewhat lower pressure than a .30-06, is going to produce more backthrust, flex and stress on the action. Correct?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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450_366
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139155 - 18/07/09 01:31 AM

Some time ago i read about a ferlach double in 500NE with spare barrels in 375H&H, when shooting the 375 the gun was so stiff to open that it was a real problem but it worked fine with the 500NE.

It seems that the high pressure and fast peak of the 375 did flex the action more then the slower 500, knowing that the face of the 500 (14,5mm) is much larger then the 375 (13mm) but its only about 25% larger but the pressure is about 70% lower. (ruffly calculated from a malfunction brain)

My point would be that if a action can stand the high pressure of a smaller cartridge it could well be that it will stand the force of a larger one.
Take a drill, it will snap at high speed but only get stuck at lower speed even if the gear will put more force into it.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 450_366]
      #139157 - 18/07/09 03:05 AM

The typical .375 and .30/06 produce the same breech pressure, but with the larger case head, the .375 will put more 'strain' on the action.

Rod - the wood is a good note on your part - the 3rd shot with the 6 dram load split the stock of my double, but a proper repair and bedding fixed it permanently. The presures were low, but the recoil wasn't. Duplication loads with smokeless very much reduced the recoil - probably in 1/2.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
      #139167 - 18/07/09 05:35 AM


So many variables come into play I think someone with a high level of knowledge of building DR's / Shotguns etc would be good to answer.

At the end of the day, if a gun is built, passes proof and last's when used regularly, then it passes the test.

I would like someone like Alex Beer to give his views on the subject.

In regards to actions, I still think that the bigger the better, hence why I like the Greener.

Re the Greener, I did a quick look around the 'net, it seems prices have risen a fair bit even for low end Empire grades.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139173 - 18/07/09 12:20 PM

Daryl,you are right.
The interesting thing is that I converted the Sauer into a slug gun and it shoots like a dream.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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prof242
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #139211 - 19/07/09 02:36 AM

Daryl, thanks for keeping this on-topic. You are right, its a 12ga bore gun I want, not a NE. For looks alone, I may just go with the Stoeger in the 26" model. They are common in Colorado and won't break the bank for a fun gun. Only six more months on my contract and then will leave Iraq and get to the important things...for me.

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Politically correct = morally wrong

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buckbrush
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: prof242]
      #141037 - 23/08/09 01:16 PM

judging by all the English shotguns that I have seen that have been ruined from shooting a couple of hundred heavy waterfowl loads (lead) , I would not bet on a Greener being stronger than a Brno or a Mirokou. I have also seen a few Sauers ruined from the same loads.

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: buckbrush]
      #141054 - 24/08/09 02:13 AM

prof242 - make sure you shorten the tubes to behind the chokes for best shooting with RB's. Also, you'll find jeff Tanner in the UK will make any size you want. I'd go for a round ball mould same size as the bore. This will produce a hard ball a couple thou undersized. Wheel Weight alloy is all that necessary - nothing harder than that is needed for anything you'll be shooting with that gun - in N.A. or Africa for that matter.

Once the gun is aquired, shortened and sighted, the gun begins.

I just tested some pure lead, 1,600fps SR4756 loads in my Mossy 835 pump and cut a 1" hole for 3 shots. It does have iron sights and a rifled barrel. Next testing will be at 50, 75 and 100 yards - later this fall. 10 day rendezvous is coming up shortly.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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wombat
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 450_366]
      #141477 - 02/09/09 06:17 PM

450 366
Interesting comment on the 375/500 combo.
If you have read P O Ackleys book you would say it is all about case design of the straight sided 500 producing so much less action flexing due to reduced backthrust-any opinions?
He does report some amazing experiments in his book

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450_366
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: wombat]
      #141504 - 03/09/09 07:43 AM

I do not know much about the internal ballistic of different cases(i havent read the book but now its on my must read list,thanks), but i hardly think its only the
form of the case. Take a look at a 577/450, hardly a high pressure round, but probably the neck holds the pressure in a little longer and that way the powder will burn more even, and give a little more speed and acccuracy.

Any way, i think that backthrust or not, the pressure would be the same as the messured one.
And the brass in itself should not make much difference no mather how thick it is.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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tarawa
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 450_366]
      #141505 - 03/09/09 07:58 AM

The best prices on good strong doubles seem to be the JP Sauers, Merkels and Simpsons that Blackbern sells. Price $250.00 to $800.00.

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Life is for Service

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