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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Bore Rifle Proof Marks?
      #138799 - 11/07/09 10:32 AM

I've got a trivia question for our experts out there.

I'd always wondered why bore rifles seem to be marked "off" by one gauge. Not withstanding the poetic license involved in large bore rifles (most nominal 4s really being 5-6 bore, etc), I've seen bunches of 12-bores('proper' .729"-.745" size) proofed at 13, my own .778" 10-bore is marked 11, etc. I recently read Greener's Modern Breechloaders where he says:

"All breech-loading barrels are fine-bored after they have received the proof-mark, in order to remove the indentations caused by stamping them at proof. It often happens that they are marked 13, and gauge full 12. Some American sportsmen will insist upon having their guns marked 12 at the proof. This is a great mistake. It is impossible for us to make a really first-class shooting gun
so marked. The same remarks apply to guns of 10-bore. These should be marked 11-bore, which allows the barrels to be, when finished, just under 10-bore."

Talking about shotguns, he explains that 13 just means a 12 sized gauge wouldn't slide down the barrel, not that it was exactly 13-bore. I'm following up to here.

My question is, regarding rifles and particularly damascus ones, was the preliminary proof done and the barrel size marked PRIOR to the rifling being cut?

It would still have to pass final proof anyway, and it would make sense to not invest the labor of rifling if the barrel was destined to fail due to a faulty weld anyway. In adition to the reasoning Greener states above, it could also explain the 13 marking on 12-bores if the barrel was 13 bore when initially proofed, but on the final product that was the land-to-land diameter. This is just idle curiousity on my part, but I've read through the 1868 act and some of the subsequent rules of proof without finding an answer. Thanks!
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #138808 - 11/07/09 06:51 PM


Very interesting!.

When reading this I wonder if they have..

1) ..drilled the barrels sub-bored.
2) ..fired full loads in them.
3)..inspected the barrels for stresses, strechtings, warps, cracks etc.
4)..when the inspection was done and the barrels passed, they stamped the barrels.
5)..re-bored or re-rifled the barrels for the correct boresizes, which also took care
of any indentations made by the stamping tools.

I have read somewhere when proving the blackpowder rifles back then they simply gave them a doublecharge powder + doubleweight bullet. My 10 is not marked with gauge caliber but with the boresize in inches (.793").

Just my one cent..

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #138809 - 11/07/09 06:53 PM


rigbymauser

that's because your gun was probably made at a later date.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27718
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138812 - 11/07/09 10:40 PM

Something we also run into, was very early slug guns & ctg. guns are measured or stamped for the bore size, which is the norm. for muzzleloading guns, not for the groove diameter.

When shooting slugs, my 14 bore muzzleloading rifle is actually a loose 13 with it's .690" bore and .714" groove diaemeter. My 16 bore Husky SxS is a 16 x 13 bore as the left barrel is 16 bore @ .662", while the right has a 15 size bore @.675" and 13 size groove @ .703" It can be confusing at times even without the re-bore after initial proof.

My chart shows 11 bore as .751", 12 @ .730", 13 @ .710", 14 @ .693", 15 @ .677" and 16 @ .663".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #138814 - 11/07/09 11:35 PM

Rigby, 500 is right on. I don't recall the year when they switched over to marking the size in inches, but I have it around here somewhere and recall reading it recently. I'll let you know when I find it.
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2027
Loc: Denmark
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #138820 - 12/07/09 03:05 AM

Quote:

Rigby, 500 is right on. I don't recall the year when they switched over to marking the size in inches, but I have it around here somewhere and recall reading it recently. I'll let you know when I find it.
Bob



I believe it was in 1887 or 1888 they changed it. Someone on the Accurate reloading.com stated that in a post..maybe .400 Nitro came up with the post?..I`LL check for sure

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #138822 - 12/07/09 04:00 AM

The British marked both rifles and smoothbores in gauge prior to the new rules of 1887. Thus, a pre-1887 .500 BPE is marked "39". This is, of course, land diameter, not groove. This simply meant that a 39 gauge ball (.492") would drop through the bore, but a 38 gauge ball (.497") would not.

Under the 1887 rules, the bore diameter mark of rifles was changed to decimals of an inch, and is primarily a reference to the name of the cartridge, not necessarily actual diameter. Thus, a post-1887 .500 BPE is marked "500EX".

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #138833 - 12/07/09 09:54 AM

My (1862) Purdey 20-bore is stamped 22 on the flats and noted as a 24-bore in the leger and it likes .625" pure lead ball or alloy ball.

My (1864) Westley Richards 16-bore is stamped 17 *and* 18 on the tubes just forward of the flats, and is noted as a 16-bore in the leger.

The Purdey (should check my notes) has a .623 or so bore, the WR somewhere in the .650's for bore (octagonal Whitworth patent profile) and grooves in the .680's (again should check my notes) does well with .690 ball



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #138880 - 13/07/09 05:41 PM

Quote:


I have read somewhere when proving the blackpowder rifles back then they simply gave them a doublecharge powder + doubleweight bullet.



In muzzle-loading times this would have made sense - except perhaps in war. According to Thomas Kenneally's 'Confederates' some rifles were found (as I have recalled previously) after battles with as many as 23 loads unfired in the barrels. It's a wonder the soldiers could insert the ramrods at all.

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: Paul]
      #138887 - 13/07/09 11:27 PM

Here are some of the muzzle loader proof charges from (I believe) the 1868 Gun-Barrel Proof Act.
An 'A' gauge 2" punt gun took an 11642 grain bullet and 8214 grain charge. That's artillery!
Even a 12 bore's initial proof was a 1214 grain bullet and 10.25 drams.




--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27718
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Bore Rifle Proof Marks? [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #138895 - 14/07/09 01:00 AM

Interesting to see what the bore sizes are listed as for each gauge, ie: a 14 seems to be anything from a .680" o a .693"and a 16 from .650"to .662".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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