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Dont fall into the traps set by the grrenies....

They would have you believe that all of the lions in SAfrica are shot tiny cages...

Why didnt they just put a minimum size on the enclosure??

So now the captive bred lions will have to be released into larger areas so they can live happy lives for two years, before the mean hunter comes to kill them. What is the difference except for allowing the greenies and some hunters sleep better at night.

Will it make you feel OK about the hunt??

The 'antis' use stepping stones and this is surely one of their stepping stones.

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Matt,

As you say, they're not all shot in tiny cages, (although some are) but at the very best, they're very habituated to people and vehicles and therefore their actions and reactions are nothing like a truly wild Lion........ not necessarily less dangerous, and it might be argued they're more dangerous because of that habituation........ but not wild.

At the worst, and believe me, there are far more at this end of the scale, they're reared in pens and then translocated into a new and fenced area (usually not particularly large) just before being shot. Tranquilising drugs are also not at all uncommon.

You ask why they didn't put a minimum size on the area..... they did and they also put a minimum time period where they should be self sustaining. The Lion farmers then said this would make Lion farming unsustainable because the Lions would act as Lions and eat their game. Well, that's what Lion do, ao I don't understand their objection.

Frankly, I personally believe that if we allow canned Lion hunting to continue, the antis will sooner or later use it as a weapon against us in an attempt to stop ALL Lion hunting throughout Africa and possibly ALL African hunting completely. As I see it, the practice is completely indefensible, unethical, immoral and has nothing to do with true hunting and if we don't police ourselves by getting rid of the bad apples, then someone else is gonna step in and do it for us....... and if they do, they won't be pro hunting and they won't act in our best interest.

If something is wrong, it's wrong, no matter how much money someone is making out of it, it's still wrong....... and if something is wrong, it ain't right.

I'm getting on in years, and am already into semi retirement from the hunting field, so it probably won't affect me much either way, but personally, I'd much rather see ALL Lion hunting in SA completely than see the above happen.

I'll add that you wouldn't believe the number of hunters who have the wool pulled over their eyes when it comes to this practice and believe they've hunted a wild Lion. The vast majority of these guys have no idea of how it truly happens. It's also not entirely restricted to SA alone and if someone wants to be sure of hunting a truly wild Lion, the only way to do that is hunt in a true wilderness area with a reputable company and accept that success isn't guaranteed and it ain't gonna be cheap. That might be unfortunate, but it is the cold hard truth of the matter.

In case anyone isn't sure what side of the fence I'm on with this, I bloody hate it.

Edited by shakari (24/07/09 04:09 AM)

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why not ban all that lion pen crap and there will be no stepping stones..

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We actually have a couple of articles on our other hunting site on this........ one of which gives the absolute skinny on how it happens and how to spot you're being screwed, but I can't copy it in here because we've had to disable the right click function on the site to stop people stealing our material. If anyone's interested, just send me an e-mail etc.

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Well send it to me and I will post it here. It is very easy to get around "right click" restrictions - called "save as".

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I personally know and have seen the full mounts of lions that were yarded into their cages at a now defunct Lion Park.. a tourist drive-through venture that was on the outskirts of a major Aus city.

They were shot through the wire and as above were full mounted....hmmmmm that dosent carry much weight in the bragging rights field either.

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Bullens Lion Park outside of Adelaide. They were purchased mainly by taxidermists for re-sale. But NOT as hunting trophies, merely natural history exhibits/decorations. There is a difference.

There is nothing wrong with owning natural history items, nor even trophies shot by other hunters. Not everything is about "bragging rights".

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I'm of two minds on this issue.

1. Hunting any animal in small pens is not hunting. It is shooting a tame animal in a cage where it has no real chance of escape. Same for captive breeding programmes. If intensively bred it is no longer a wild animal. No matter if it is in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand (very common), USA etc. Any animal bred in an antelope/deer/lion farm etc needs several years before truer wild instincts take old. Most however would be "hunted" the same year as release, if not the same week in many circumstances.

Lion being a peak predator makes the practice even worse. There is a reason they are one of the "Big Five". And it is not from being shot in a cage.

The only "lion hunting area" I have seen in South Africa was a 200 acre very high fenced bit of bush. It made me sick to look at it. I am not saying however that there are no larger "enclosures" where more "free chase" conditions are not in existence, however never seen them.

As has been pointed out, lions need a large game population to prey upon. The price to maintain a large game population for several years would make it more costly than a wild lion trophy. As an example when visiting India and a tiger park, I estimated it took the 100,000 to 250,000 deer and antelope population in the park to maintain what was claimed as the tiger population considering how often they needed to feed - about 500 tigers. Lions would no doubt have similar feeding requirements.

2. On the other hand, lions in the wild are becoming more scarcer and even endangered. Probably more due to human encroachment and human competition for resources than safari hunting.

If lions can be maintained and financed through captive breeding programmes and "caged hunting" then it is a positive and gives a resource for future releases to the wild if it is ever possible. An "Ark" resource of the species if it is threatened in the wild. And all self financed by the caged lion shooters.

2.b. While greenies and other loonies decry the practice as barbaric and evil, they hate all hunting. When "caged lion hunting" is no more they will just turn to the next target. No doubt all the caged plains game hunting that goes on in South Africa. No real difference except the "prestige" of the animal.

So on balance even though I detest "caged hunting" of any kind, I think it the lion population held in the breeding and "hunting" pens is eliminated we have progressed well on the way to no lion hunting one day, and also towards destruction of the species.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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why not ban all that lion pen crap and there will be no stepping stones..

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Why not ban all high-fence hunting in South Africa - no matter what the area or conditions??

I dont suppose a lion is any different to any other animal.

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Matt,

I sincerely hope you don't think I'm having a pop at you here, cos' I'm not. All I'm trying to do is clarify things a bit so that members don't get hold of the wrong end of the stick.

There's an immense difference between the PG and Lions in these areas.

The plains game live in very large, fenced areas. I don't know what the average size is, but generally larger than 15000 acres and not uncommonly, 30000 acres plus. Most of these areas have no internal fences. The game in most areas is self sustaining. They live and breed in these areas all their lives and excepting occasional translocations, they know their home ranges very well indeed. So in other words, to all intents and purposes, they live in a relatively free environment and because they know their home ranges, can dodge both two and four legged predators without too much difficulty and hunters will have fairly similar challenges to overcome as they would in most unfenced areas.

Lions on the other hand, are bred and live their lives in pens that range from very small indeed to small. Then they're (almost always) drugged, then translocated into an area they don't know at all, then within a few days and often a few hours, are shot. The area they're shot in is completely alien to them and often very small as well. As I said before, there's also the issue of tranquilising drugs.

Comparing PG hunting in a fenced area to canned Lion hunting isn't comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to moon rocks.

John,

I tried as you suggested and can indeed save a page, but Photobucket doesn't recognise the page as an image and so won't load it and Photoshop doesn't recognise the format and won't allow me open it to change it to a jpeg etc. If I save as, and then copy and paste, then both sites get penalised by the search engines for identical content. Sorry mate......... I have however, sent you a PM.

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Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (24/07/09 11:43 PM)

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cooch I am thinking clearly,perhaps you are the one not doing so...

How anyone could argue that canned lion hunting is kosher is beyond me!

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There's an immense difference between the PG and Lions in these areas.

The plains game live in very large, fenced areas. I don't know what the average size is, but generally larger than 15000 acres and not uncommonly, 30000 acres plus. Most of these areas have no internal fences.

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The game in most areas is self sustaining. They live and breed in these areas all their lives and excepting occasional translocations, they know their home ranges very well indeed.

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Again a lot of these properties buy the animals at auctions at the beginning of the season.

The more expensive the trophies fees the more likely they are being bought at auction IMO.

Not commenting on the difficulty of hunting at all, as by the end of the season some of these beasts have been chased almost every day during the hunting season.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Even though it is not something I would be interested in participating in, I chalk this up as a victory for the anti hunting crowd.

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I agree 100%. Whats next? Gemsbuck, blesbuck, etc?? Lions weren't the only game ranched in SA.

Mike

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I hate the idea of a canned hunt. If I want to shoot a farm raised animal I'll give my father in law's neighbor $600 and shoot one of her cattle. Why spend $15000 + to travel to Africa and shoot livestock?

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"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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