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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150638 - 14/01/10 01:06 PM

Daryl,
"Some day chicken next day feather" LOL

If you can not level the barrels, you should have to check the southafrican forum.
They have a lot of Kodiaks.
They use a different charge in each barrel with success.
I think it is not a bad idea for first pair, if you miss both......just relax......LOL.

I send you an email.

Thanks for sharing.

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150646 - 14/01/10 01:54 PM

Guys - this is a video of my brother loading the Virginia rifle he built - 44" bl. .50 cal. 'Rice' barrel. He's using a .495" ball and a .022" denim patch, lubricated with windshield washer fluid, the -45 stuff, mixed with a couple ounces of liquid soap. We've stopped using soap now and use a couple ounces of Neetsfoot oil in about a litre of fluid. A litre is 33.8oz. compared to the US quart of 32oz. The exact ratio is not important. The oil is just to slow the evapouration of the patch lube. For hunting, we use staright neetsfoot oil or mink oil from Track. He is using a range rod so he doesnt' have to keep taking out the rifle's rod and replacing it. We load pretty much the same with a range rod as we do with the rifle's rod.
We've been shooting BP rifles and smoothbores since 1970 for him and 1972 for me.(aside from the left handed flintlock pistol he build at age 16 - all parts hand made including drilling the barrel.

I should also note at the time he loaded this, we'd been shooting for about 2 hours, maybe 25 or more shots each - no wiping at any time. With a good thick patch and descent sized ball, the fouling present in the barrel is only from one shot, the previous one. As you load, you are wiping the last shot. If fouling is building in the grooves, something is wrong with your combination - the ball size, patch thickness, crown or maybe even the lube which is of least importance. The crown is the most important aspect of the load as it needs to be right, or it will not allow you to load a tight enough combination.



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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150677 - 14/01/10 11:19 PM

Thanks Daryl,
I just can see it after updating the program.

I like very much the way you "hit" the ball with the starter.
I put the starter on the ball and hit it with the palm.
I should try you way. I like it.

Thanks for sharing.
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150684 - 15/01/10 02:48 AM

The starters we use have either large rounded hickory knobs, or moose antler shanks. We like the moose antler as it's heavy and hard.
Hitting the bal with the knob of the shank with 1 blow, doesn't distort the ball but merely puts it down flush with the top surface of the muzzle.

Then, smacking the knob with the shaft of the starter resting on the ball puts it down the tube the length of the starter. Taylor uses a couple lighter smacks to put the ball down into the bore, as he's a bit more particular about pinching his fingers against the muzzle. My timing for getting my fingers out of the way might be a bit better, I guess.

If you whack, whack whack with a mallet on the ball to put it flush into the muzzle it will distort the ball, flattening the top surface considerably. Doing it with one smack does not, as it merely flattens the sprue a bit.

I also have a small knob on the starter's handle which I use in some guns as this method actually makes for a more accurate shot. The small brass plunger, which has a concave cup on the end, and sticks out of the starter's knob or handle about 1/4". This puts the ball and patch down into the muzzle that 1/4" and results in no damage to the top surface at all, due to the cup. To use, put the small brass knob on top of the ball, which is sitting on the patch. Give the back of the starter a whack with your palm and into the muzzle goes the ball and patch. It's a bit slower than a single whack with the starter and that's why we use the single whack a lot- especiall in larger bores. Smaller bores are more particular, accuracy wise, and benefit from a more gentle approach. The brass protrusions I use, are usually the but end of a ctg. case with the primer removed and the bottom cupped with a drill bit.

Perhaps you noticed in the video I put the starters, big knob on the rod to push the ball down, then smacked it at the bottom. The bottom smack is to set the ball on the powder with the same pressure each time. Practise doing this will teach you to use the same pressure each time. This is very important for accuracy. You can feel with the rod when the ball comes to rest on the powder. Then, I put just alight smack on the knob to 'compress' the powder slightly, for a more even burn. Taking velocity readings with doing this and not doing this will show improvements with the method I adopted. The starter's know has a hole drilled into one side to fit over the rod so the knob can be used as I showed.


These are some of my starters showing the little stud. they are hickory, elk antler and moose antler. The leather washers protects the muzzle from the hard antler which will actually ding it when struck. I moved the big round wooden one to show the cupped stud. All of the studs are cupped to prevent damage to the ball. that wooden starter is the first I made for the 14 bore rifle - which means it's 24 years old and is a favorite. The largest Moose antler starter is becoming a favourite due to it's mass, although not much heavier than the wooden one.
The horn is a custom horn I purchased at Dixon's Gun Maker's Fair last July - also a favourite. It is very thin and holds 1 1/2 pounds of 2f - a large horn. The smallest starter is for the .32, while the second smallest is for the .40 and .45 using a 3/8" hickory shaft. The largest starters use 1/2" and 9/16" hickory shafts. It is important to have a brass collar on the end of the starter shaft to prevent splitting. In the very small calibres, a .22 hornet case, rim removed will work, whereas larger diameter cases are used for the larger shafts, of course.


Edited by Daryl_S (15/01/10 04:36 AM)


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #150688 - 15/01/10 04:38 AM

Thanks Daryl for the explanation.
I will tryed it just to see.
I use an old strater (on the right) from my old underhammer:



In my sistem I put the ball the set the starter and give one wack with the palm.
This put the ball 1" into the barrel, then push it with the range rod (with muzzle protector) util it seat on the poder, the hit the ball three tiems with the rod.
It works Ok but I think your system looks better, it worth to try it.

Thanks
Martin

PS: We were posting together. LOL.
I like your wooden starter, hope you do not mind if I copy it.
how to you make the spheric hole on the stem?

BTW:
Check on general forum to see the wind we had this week.

Edited by beleg2 (15/01/10 04:45 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #150700 - 15/01/10 09:04 AM

The 'stem' is a piece of .308 Winchester or maybe a .300 short mag. case glued into the wood. The hole is the primer flash hole. I chuck them up on the lathe and turn them back to the bottom of the primer cup, then cup them with a drill bit. I used to do this with files after chucking them in an electric drill, clamped in the bench vise. That was my 'lathe' for many years.

Note the longer shanks on my starters. these put the ball a good 4" to 7" down into the bore. the farther down they are, the less chance of breaking the rifle's rod when loading. I know a lot of people use muzzle protectors, but I never have, in 38 years of shooting muzzleloaders.

BTW - the wooden starter's knob, is a piece of smaller diameter base-ball bat. Come to think of it, it's probably oak, not kickory.

I also use adjustable measures when working up a load. Once I find the most accurate load for the gun, I make a brass, bone or antler measure to throw that amount. Over the years, I've made many measures and pretty much have them 5 gr. increments from about 25 to 120gr., plus my 140, 165 and 200gr, measures.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151187 - 20/01/10 03:23 AM

Always - always - always, use a long enough starter shaft that puts the ball down the bore past the front sight dovetail. If you screw up and forget to seat the ball on the powder (not good - ever), and shoot it only short started, it might not ring the barrel. I've seen that (non ringing) happen, even with thin walled smoothbores several times. If the ball is sitting under the front sight dovetail, it will ALWAYS ring.
If rung, the barrel must be cut back and re-crowned. The metal is actually stretched at that point and torn in the bottom of the 'groove' of the ring. We've sectioned several - always the same - torn steel where it stretched.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151308 - 21/01/10 07:33 AM

Well, did some more shooting yesterday yet have more to do when I get some more powder - getting low on 2F. I did try some 1F GOEX loads, to 120gr. I had resonable accuracy form each barrel, but the points of impact spread vertically by a good 3" - not good.
The 2f load of 100gr. along with a .022" patch and the small .562" ball loaded very easily, of course, but did open the groups from the previous per-barrel grouping of 82gr.(3drams)

I need to try some tighter patches and do some 3F testing. The only tests I did do with 3F wa the 3 dram load, which gas-cut the patches. This is due to the higher or faster generated pressure that 3f produces. It will take a better, "read thicker" patch to contain the added pressure.

With all other powder charges tried using 2f and 2f, the spent patches were re-usable, yet the combination of ball size and patch thickness x 2 barely makes it to the bottom of the grooves. Some compression in the bottom of the grooves is necessary with higher pressure loads - which is normal.

The offhand shots were the last 2 of the day - after firing about 40 shots per tube. I held a tich low of centre for the first shot being the higher shooting right barrel, then in the middle of the target for the left. As noted, these were shot at 56 yards according to the range finder, actually the same 56 yard range as the first target I posted as 50 yards, as the target butts were frozen into the ground and were not moveable.

The offhand target shows a slight right drift and I may have to move the sights to compensate. Both offhand shots felt 'perfectly' centred. More offhand and hunting position shooting will be needed before any sight movement is done, of course.

I guess it's useable for a deer and black bear hunting rifle.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151313 - 21/01/10 07:59 AM

Hi Daryl!

Very good shooting!
Looks like the rifle want to shot and you do your part too.
Like your shooting "little low" right and "dead on" left.

Unfortuatelly local range is open only on week end and I will be at the beach next week ends.
So I will have to wait a little more ot shot.

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151346 - 21/01/10 03:10 PM

Beach? - farthest thing from my mind right now - too much snow and ice.

Your reference to impact locations I presume was for 100 meters. I've only ever shot one moose farther away than 100 yards, and most are less than 80, so the impacts are just fine for them. Deer, I've always walked them up on trails having fresh tracks so shots are under 50 yards.

The accuracy is less than I desire, so I'll try different patch thicknesses to improve that. As well, I have to shoot some heavier loads to see what they do to the regulation. The lower the pressure, it seems, the greater the vertical spread of the impact. Canting the rifle is something else that raises or lowers bullet impacts, as well as separating or crossing of the bores. Lots of testing to do.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151386 - 22/01/10 03:07 AM

Daryl now at 12 o´clock we have 28°C and tomorow shold toch 32°C hope we can enjoy the Necochea Beach.
Next week I will visit Octavio, gran son of my good friend Saverio Bonazza. You may remember his solid charge (I post about them some time ago). I hope to do some shooting at Balcarce range.

Doubles do strange things. So, it looks like high pressure is the way to go.

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151417 - 22/01/10 10:31 AM

Higher pressure, as given by 3f over 2F, requires a tighter ball/patch combination. Since the 3f was burning the patches and 100gr. 2F as well as 120gr. 1F wasn't we can say that 82gr. of 3f developed higher pressure.

I know from chronographing other guns, that 100gr. of 2f gives higher velocity than 82gr. of 3f - in .50, .54, .58 and .69 cal rifles - yet that 82gr. of 3f produces higher pressure.

Next test will be with 110gr. and 120gr. 2f, and I might try larger ball, the .570", .575" or perhaps a heavier patch with the smaller .562" ball, juet to see the effect. I suspect the rifle's 48" twist will still shoot well with upwards of 120gr. 2F, which would make a good moose gun, as long as the barrel's impacts were close together - here's hoping.

I'd rather not use 3f due to it's rapid increase in pressure with load increases, without giving a corresponding increase in velocity.

In this 9 1/2 pound rifle, recoil is not a problem. That 9 1/2 pounds is with the 1 pound bar of lead removed formthe butt stock. The balance is still fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151422 - 22/01/10 11:22 AM

"That 9 1/2 pounds is with the 1 pound bar of lead removed formthe butt stock."
All rifles have this lead ball?

I have no problem choosing 3F or 2F as I can only get local 3F powder.

Thanks
Martin

PS: Have you saw my question on bore forum?

Edited by beleg2 (22/01/10 11:23 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151450 - 22/01/10 05:06 PM

9 1/2 pounds with the bar removed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #151470 - 22/01/10 08:46 PM

All rifles have this lead bar?
Is it under the butt plate?
Thanks

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #151511 - 23/01/10 03:31 AM

yes- It is undersized to the hole, but has had a rod pounded onto it, slugging up the front end and the rear end. if you drill a hold into the end you can see, then screw in a long shanked wood screw that you can get a hold of with long nosed locking plyers, then tap to plyers to 'pull' the plug out. Don't use too bit a screw as that will 'obturate' (expand) the lead to a tighter fit inside the hole. If the lead is too tight to pull out, try thumping the stock on the sides, top and bottom with a well-padded hammer handle so you don't mark the stock's surface. The thumping will compress the lead where it contacts the sides of the hole, making it easier to remove. Mine loosened up just with the work I did re-finishing the stock, filing, and using an orbital sander (much vibration). The vibrations of the sander did what thumping the stock will also do.

My rifle weighed 10 1/2 pounds as obtained, 9 1/2 pounds now with the lead removed. Offhand, it holds a bit better now due to the lighter butt, heavier barrels. It still mounts well and the lead was not needed, indeed, made the rifle a bit ungainly due to excessive weight for the calibre. I've been told that all Kodiaks have it. Whether yours does or not, one merely has to unscrew the butt plate & have a look-see.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #152895 - 05/02/10 08:44 AM

Daryl,
My rifle hace it too!!!!
It is incredible such a piece of lead.
The rifle now (without the chunk of lead) feels funy but much lighter.

Thanks
Martin


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #153406 - 12/02/10 06:20 AM

Hi Daryl,
I have decide to blue the lock plates and hammers but could not get the hammers out.
How do you take them out?
Do you blued together?
Thanks
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #153427 - 12/02/10 11:21 AM

Remove the screw that holds the hammers on the tumbler.
Remove all the lock's innards- but FIRST - you should have a mainspring vice to do this, but vice grips can be used, if done carefully. Also, an 1/8" to 3/16" thick piece of steel with a 1/4" slot in it will also work as a mainspring vise.

Slide the 'tool' I described up the mainspring with the locks at full cock - or lightly grip the main spring with the vice grips - lock ar full cock position. Now, gently trip the sear and move the hammer forward to make the spring's engagement on the tumbler swivel loose. Remove the mainspring and set down without tripping the vice-grips.

Loosen the sear spring until you can release it from it's 'catch' in the lock plate, releaving it's pressure against the sear. Now, remove the sear and scew spring. Remove the screws holding the tumbler plate on, then remove the plate.

You should not have a hammer attached to the tumbler through the lock plate. Hold the lock plate in your palm, tumbler down, hammer facing up. Put a brass drift down into the screw hold of the hammer. It should be brass and just clear the threads but go to the bottom of the hole. Tap the drift with a small hammer and the tumbler should drop off the hammer into your hand, which also loosens the plate. You can now blue the hammer and plate.

NOTE - if you try to pry the hammer off the tumbler, you may break the tumbler projection. Then, the lock will need a new tumbler - don't do this. You need to tap it off as indicated, unless it is loose. These are not high grade guns and it is possible the square hole in the hammer is oversize. If the hammer isn't loose, you must do as I wrote.

Hope this helps. The more times you assemble and remove the lock parts, the easier a job it becomes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #153772 - 15/02/10 10:57 AM

Hi,
I just finished lock plate blueing.


Looks much more traditional.
I have to change the sights too, they works fine but look out of place in this rifle.

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: beleg2]
      #153840 - 16/02/10 02:30 AM

Looking better already. Bit different lineage than mine, judging by the checkering.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Daryls paper patched RBs. [Re: DarylS]
      #153856 - 16/02/10 05:49 AM

Daryl,
My rifle is younger than yours,
It was sent to Argentina about 1996 (5187K) but I bought it almost unused 2 years ago.

You can send an email to: gloria@davidepedersoli.com
With your serial, she can tell you when they made it.

The also provide some info about the story of these rifles for an article I was writing:

"There is always a sinergy and cooperation between the Davide Pedersoli Company and our main Distributors.
We may be the first receiving inquiries of new products from the final customers, or it can be the distributor who already made the market research and have some figures for us to work on. If we decide to enter a new project, there is the historical research, the search for an original to study, often we succeed buying the original gun, then there is the evaluation about the difficulty to produce it and the tooling costs.
For our Kodiak double express the solicitation was made to us from Trails Guns Armoury, an American company which lasted since some years ago, until the owner passed away.
The original double express rifles date back to 1850 about. We do not have one original, but the American customer provided us with detailed documentation.
The Kodiak name was also chosen by the him, following an adventure/hunting book he read."


BTW: I preffer the checkering on your rifle to mine.
Very intersting.
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (16/02/10 05:55 AM)


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