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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Sabots+BP?
      #136380 - 30/05/09 04:41 AM

Hi,
BEWARE IT IS ABOUT UNTRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADING.

I have not much experience with inline and sabots.

How do sabots works with true black powder? Most comments are on sintetic powder.

I would like to buy a new rifle, an inline from Ardesa/Traditions, Yukon model.
Have anyone shot it?
I will use sabots with LBT like .432” 310gr bullets and black powder.


Thanks
Martin

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136393 - 30/05/09 09:53 AM

Martin-


Just from my perspective -- I've never gotten sabots to run as well as roundball in any of my rifles, even the one that would be considered the best for that kind of thing (a lyman stainless deerstalker, which is a tackdriving ultra ripper with .535 ball and 110gr FFg).




Have fun with your experimentation, and let us know how it goes.



cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: tinker]
      #136437 - 31/05/09 12:02 AM

Trouble I see with Sabots,(other than my intense dislike for them and the guns that shoot them) is no lube, plastic fouling in the grooves and difficulty loading after 1 or 2 shots- not to mention - OK, I will, their cost!

Now, if you would turn some rings on the plastic sabot for bullet lube, perhaps they'd work. If I had one of those 'beasts', I'd shoot full size lead bullets with flat noses, ie: a .50 bullet in a .50 and .54 bullet in a .54.

The rifling twist in most of them is 35" - some might be a bit faster and that's an improvement. The 35" probably won't stabilize a 300gr., .43" bullet unless it's running well over 1,500fps. The inlines I've seen have 15/16" barrels. You would never find me shooting 150gr. of any kind of powder in a .50 calibre with any elongated bullet. The pressure generated will be in the 30,000psi or higher range - no way, no how.

Actually, you'll find that I've ever fired one, nor ever will.

I will use slugs in a properly constructed muzzleloading rifle, in fact have two slug moulds for my 14 bore at this tiem - a 560gr. to 1200gr. adjustable mould I made myself, and the 730gr. minnie bullet designed originally for the .69 US rifled muskets.

I prefer to use round balls, as Tinker does and find they kill game better than elongated bullets. if you want more power, go bigger - 16 to 14 bore are about adequate to perfect for most any game, anywhere.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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doulos
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Reged: 05/03/08
Posts: 2
Loc: western ny
Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136477 - 01/06/09 10:17 AM

While I now prefer roundball shooting I have shot literally thousands of rounds of saboted bullets out of at east 5 different fast twist inlines sitting on top of 90-110 grains of black powder. Ive killed about 25 whitetails with 300 grain XTPs in either Hornady or MMP sabots most of the time with black powder as the propellant. I never found the substitutes as quite as accurate. In fact Knight Rifles used to recommend real black powder or Pyrodex Select for best accuracy.
This changed a little with hotter ignitions such as 209 primers. The hotter ignitions helped the substitutes I felt in the accuracy department.

Obviously you have to clean between shots when using sabots and black powder. The best way is to just dampen a patch on your tongue, run it with short strokes down the bore , then turn it over and run it again.

When shooting sabots you must let the barrel cool between shots for best accuracy. Nothing will destroy a group faster than pushing a plastic sabot down a smoking hot barrel.

Even though I don't hunt with those rifles anymore dont be afraid to use the real black out of em. It works well.

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beleg2
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: doulos]
      #136513 - 01/06/09 10:44 PM

Thanks for all answers.
I have been using round balls and REALs on my rifles, but I would like to try a different ballistic.
Most boar hunting opportunities in Argentina involve waiting close to a water hole by night at moon light. Shooting under this conditions demand a 80-100 yards accuracy and trajectory, the use of scopes and also a good waterproofing.
Last year I made a scoped underhammer for this purpose but, as barrel is 1-48” it do not shot +240 gr .44 bullets very well. I would like to use my LBT like 300 gr bullets, so I need a 1-28” gun. I have to try hard RB to see accuracy.
I have the opportunity of buying a very low cost inline and I would like to try it. A 300gr bullet flying at 1500 fps looks very good.

Thanks for your advises.
Martin

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Plains99
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136516 - 02/06/09 12:08 AM

I have field tested the Yukon and it is a good design especially for the inexpensive price. Trigger is good! It is a carbine and handles like one. I used mine on a Wyoming coyote hunt shooting pellets and 240-grain sabots and it was very accurate.

My observations on this topic are: a 209 primer system is awfully hot for black powder and unnessary... but should work (recommend the new milder primers made for muzzleloaders)... however contamination will be heavy and you may have to wipe more often even with the new "easy load" sabots which greatly improve sabot loading. In spite of what some of the gun writers claim black powder remains the most accurate choice because shot to shot velocities are much more uniform than any of the substitutes and especially pellets. Personally, I'd try FFFg for this rifle and sabots.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: Plains99]
      #136519 - 02/06/09 01:36 AM

Martin - don't be drawn to the Dark Side. build a 14 bore English Sporting rifle and have the best hunting rifle there is. Round balls rule. You can shoot any alloy you want and a 15 bore ball, WW, hardened WW or pure lead, appropriately applied, will kill anything, anywhere.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: DarylS]
      #136549 - 02/06/09 11:10 AM

Dont worry Daryl.
I will be back to the light soon.
I just want to try the inlines and use them for this especific hunting.
I have not a better rifle than my Kodiak (even thou the nipples are wrong.LOL).

Thanks
Martin

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136572 - 02/06/09 09:17 PM

They can be repaired.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: DarylS]
      #136574 - 02/06/09 09:29 PM

Daryl,
How can I repair the wrong design of the Kodiak nipples?
I have read your posts some time ago about what is wrong.

Thanks
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (02/06/09 09:30 PM)

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136580 - 02/06/09 11:21 PM

Beleg2,
I recently purchased a .50 caliber 700 Remington inline muzzleloader and measured the twist rate at one turn in 28 inches. I will use this gun out at our farm for longer range shooting on our local deer population. I have not had time to work up loads for it yet but I have had good results in the past with sabots loaded with heavy bullets powered by two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a 209 shotgun primer. My gun has the 209 primer nipple added to it. I don't think 150 grain loads are necessary for deer or hog sized game. I hope this helps. Bob H.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #136593 - 03/06/09 01:47 AM

Martin- here is Pedesoli's breech. Note the nice 'fence' that is not doing the job it was designed to do - to protect the shooter from cap fragments. The nipple seats are too high and the nipple itself prevents the hammer nose from curling over the fence as the original design calls for. It would be sooooeasy for them to 'fix' their design. There is no drop to the nipple seat at all, into the standing breech.
Below, is an original H.Wahl gun showing a nice 'fence' and the proper curl of the hammer's nose over that fence to protect the shooter from cap fragments. Fences, are to protect people - from animals, protect children from traffic and protect your eye-balls from cap fragments. My wife wore a small 1/8" fragment of piece of copper in her eyelid for many years, little grean spot visible underneath the skin, befor eafter abotu 15 years, it worked it's way to the surface. Had here eye not been closed (probably flinched at the shot), the frag may have struck the eye-ball itself.

To fix? Well, if enough threads are visible when you remove the nipples, you may mill the surface of the nipple seat itself down. you can use a shorter nipple and you can also drill the hammer nose out a bit so it comes down farther other the cap.

I knew saving that pedersoli double-gun picture would come in handy, some day. Rather graphic, their cost cutting venture shows. It would have been a simple matter for Pedersoli to mill the nipple seat to the correct level - simple and cheap - they didn't. Too bad. It would have greatly improved the appearance of the gun. Most modern made double shotguns are the same.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: DarylS]
      #136861 - 07/06/09 06:29 AM

Daryl,
I check my Kodiak and it looks better than the one of your pictures.
It this geometry better than the old one?



Thanks
Martin

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136889 - 07/06/09 11:59 PM

Yes - slightly better and a better angle to the relation of hammer to nipple.

BUT - Cutting the notch in the hammer just a bit more deeply with a mill-end or flat ground carbide drill, will improve it even farther.

I note from your picture, they are cutting the nipple seat a bit more deeply - Good for them but it's still rather shallow. Perhaps that's all they can do with the inside geometry of their breech?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: DarylS]
      #136911 - 08/06/09 06:58 AM

I think the can not cut the nipple seat any more deeply.
Theres not much to do as the distance from this point to the hammer stop is only 1.6mm (.0629")
I can deepen the hammer reces just a little.

Thanks
Martin

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Sabots+BP? [Re: beleg2]
      #136926 - 08/06/09 11:03 AM

Good - be aware how far down the main spring will travel - it might hit the wood at the bottom of it's throw - or does this lock have a coil spring?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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