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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
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Loc: Illinois
Barrel steel ???
      #135974 - 23/05/09 02:26 AM

I have question on the steel that was used in gun barrels during the transition from muzzle loading firearms to breech loading firearms. I am under the assumption that the steel in muzzle-loaders which was a quite mild steel, was continued to be used in the early breechloaders and better steel was not used until the invention of smokeless powder. I also have a question, can a breech loading barrel be made out of the same steel that modern muzzle loaders barrels are made out of, fireing lead projectiles and black powder, of course???? Thanks, Ed

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Longknife

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Tatume
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Longknife]
      #135978 - 23/05/09 05:04 AM

Actually, the metallurgical composition of early steels wasn’t as big a detriment as the physical mechanism by which it was made. Steels were smelted in small lots, or hammered, or a combination of both. Usually there were inclusions, and the more care that went into making the steel the fewer the inclusions. Almost all early steels had some though, and these are the greatest source of weakness. An included contaminant could cause an early failure, or it could lead to a fracture later in the life of the firearm. If it reached the surface, rust would form in the vicinity of the impurity, which could lead to a fracture.

One of the biggest advances in industrial technology was the invention of the electric smelting process. Now relatively clean steel could be produced in large batches. Modern steel lacks the inclusions that caused so much trouble in early steels. Modern ordinance steel, even if quite mild, is far superior to the steels in use in the 19th century.

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Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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MarinePMI
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Reged: 21/04/08
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Longknife]
      #135980 - 23/05/09 05:50 AM

I'm not familiar with why, but even today many of the muzzle loader/black powder only barrels are made from a different steel than barrels intended for cartridge fired firearms. 1137 fro the BP only/ML barrels and then the standard 4140 CM and 416 SS for the rest.

Again, I'm not sure why, just something I've noticed...

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MarinePMI

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Tatume
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: MarinePMI]
      #135988 - 23/05/09 07:16 AM

It's probably because it is cheaper to buy and easier to work, and therefore cheaper in labor.

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Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Tatume]
      #135989 - 23/05/09 07:32 AM

Quote:

It's probably because it is cheaper to buy and easier to work, and therefore cheaper in labor.



That sounds about right. Also some of these repro's are browned rather than blacked. Would be easier without the chrome in the mix.

Regards

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Longknife
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Bramble]
      #136038 - 24/05/09 06:21 AM

Ok, so about my question, can a modern barrel that was made for use in a muzzle-loading firearm be used for a breechloading firearm, using black powder and lead (no jackets) projectiles. My real concern is not about pressures but about the steel being able to withstand the wear of the lead against the bore versus a cloth patch against the bore.?????...Ed

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Longknife

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Dphariss
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Longknife]
      #138170 - 29/06/09 08:57 AM

A person is far ahead to use 4140-4150 hot rolled gun barrel quality or better steel.
1137 will work if hot rolled and of proper quality but the chrome-moly steels are better.
Cold rolled steels of any alloy, steels with high levels of lead, phosphorus etc or other free machining steels should be avoided regardless of the strength they might appear to have on paper.

Dan

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Dphariss
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: MarinePMI]
      #138171 - 29/06/09 09:12 AM

Quote:

I'm not familiar with why, but even today many of the muzzle loader/black powder only barrels are made from a different steel than barrels intended for cartridge fired firearms. 1137 fro the BP only/ML barrels and then the standard 4140 CM and 416 SS for the rest.

Again, I'm not sure why, just something I've noticed...




Unfortunately many ML barrels by "custom" makers are made of cold rolled free machining leaded screw stock.
Hot rolled 1137 is "OK" but the CM steels are much better.
416 is turning out to be a poor choice too with a number of barrels failing for no apparent reason. It is a free machining alloy and this means its brittle so the chips break easily when its cut.

Note the warning at the bottom of Krieger's "caliber and pricing" page.
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Calibers__Prices-c1246-wp3390.htm


From LaSalle Steel and published in the Black Powder Report back in the late 70s IIRC I cropped it too close when I scanned it and did not include the date.




Dan

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kamilaroi
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Dphariss]
      #138175 - 29/06/09 12:09 PM

I think Roy Dunlap's "Gunsmithing" has a fair bit of info on this matter.

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333Jeffery
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #139820 - 31/07/09 10:22 AM

Something I've wondered about: can "super alloys", such as Inconel, be used to make gun barrels? I know they're very expensive, but I was curious as to whether or not they could be machined/bored with conventional tools.

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Bramble
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #139843 - 01/08/09 03:00 AM

Quote:

Something I've wondered about: can "super alloys", such as Inconel, be used to make gun barrels? I know they're very expensive, but I was curious as to whether or not they could be machined/bored with conventional tools.



Conventional ie the same as 416 4140 ect....no.

Regards

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Altamaha
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Bramble]
      #144822 - 31/10/09 05:03 AM

I have machined inconel, hastalloy, and a few other nasties.

Nope, a barrel maker would have a difficult time!

Although Steve Webb, Apex Barrels in Flatstaff AZ, has made titanium barrels for 30mm guns on the A-10, cut rifled on his monster Chicage Bridge & Iron "grasshopper style" cut rifling machine.

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DarylS
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: Altamaha]
      #144854 - 31/10/09 01:25 PM

Ed- although Green Mountain uses 4140 for their ctg. brrels teels for BP rifles, they use something 'softer' or a different alloy for the muzzleloading barrels.

Round ball guns such as ours, with outside ignition fall into the 15,000psi range for max pressure & I 'assume' most RB barrels are made with this in mind. For CTG guns, the barerl companies usually use 4140, which is the standard for all modern rifles as well, but I don't know about the heat treatment, whether these BP ctg. barrels are acceptable to high pressure rounds. I shoot relatively low pressure smokeless in my .45/60 GM barrel regularly, expecting them to be in the 24,000PSI range or under. That big fat angled Sharps firing pin keeps my loads reasonable.

Shooting slugs greatly increases the pressure - witness the .45/70 - a mere 70gr. 2F, with a 405gr. bullet and closed ignition runs 22,000psi, a typical .50/90, about 24,000 and a .45 3-1/4 - around 30,000.

There was a question about wear. Naked, grooved lubricated bullets will wear the barrel less than any other form of patching. Steel would being the worse, then gilding metal, copper, paper,cloth, then naked being the least.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: DarylS]
      #144855 - 31/10/09 01:43 PM

Quote:

There was a question about wear. Naked, grooved lubricated bullets will



True.

Or the worst, if they are cast from a dirty melt.

Years ago Elmer Keith wrote that cast bullets could be the hardest on barrels if they are dirty and contain grit, sand etc.

I then looked at some of the cast bullets a certain someone {...me...} had cast and I realized he was, as usual, right. I was a green youngster shooting 60 grit laps.

Since then, I've been persnickety about cleaning my melts.

Daryl is dead right, the clean lead bullet is a pussycat on barrels, but some greenhorns like I was might be turning silk purses into sow's ears.

I wonder who owns those guns now...?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Barrel steel ??? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144892 - 01/11/09 02:46 AM

Years ago, I picked up a M71/76 Mauser Carbine, in .43 Mauser chambering, of course.
The early guns had very deep rifling, with .436" bores and a .457" groove diameter, for .0105" deep rifling, each side. A .446" paper patched soft lead bullet was shot in this era round with 77gr. Black Powder. The fast-pressuring black powder charge efectively obturated the bullet to fill the rifling, and produced reasonable military accuracy - 4" at 100 meters about normal. One must remember this bolt actioned rifle was way ahead of it's time and metalic centreally primed ctgs. were quite new. The Model 71/86 had a .446" groove diameter and .436" to .437" bore.

The bore of my rifle was very rough - like a rusted sewer pipe.

I wanted to firelap the barrel, but since the chamber's neck wouldn't allow a bullet large than .446" to be seated in the case, I rechambered it to .450 Alaskan, a wildcat on the .348 Winchester Case. This allowed the use of full diameter bullets and allowed me to firelapp the barrel.

Long story to the result with lead bullets. I rolled the bullets to impregnate 20 grit valve grinding compound into the full surface of the bullet as both lands and grooves of the bore were very rough.

I loaded these rounds with a very light charge of fast burning smokeless powder to produce a speed of 1,000fps approximately.

After firing 40 rounds of these fire-lapping loads, the bore diameter increased to .437" and the grooved iameter increased to .458" - both measurements a full thousanth of an inch larger than prior to the test.

The bore now shines one end to the other, although it's still a bit rough from the odd deeper pits. The important thing here, is the pits are no longer sharp edged, but rounded and the barrel doesn't lead. It's shootable and will hold in 3" at 100yards with the battel sights on it's short 20" barrel.

Sometimes, abrasion is a good thing. The loader is in control of what goes out the tube.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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