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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Huvius
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Loc: Colorado
Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores!
      #134168 - 02/05/09 04:09 AM

Wow, three H&H 8bores on offer at the same time!
This is a good opportunity to do an impromtu study of these guns.
I notice the one at Champlins looks like it has flat sided hammers and sideclips, but is an earlier gun than at least one of the others.
Interestingly, the damascus is different on all three. In fact, two have the steel wrapped in different directions on the right barrel - one clockwise, one counter clockwise. I wonder which way the rifling turns...
For aesthetics, the steel was wrapped in opposite directions for each barrel, but I am not sure if the barrels were rifled in opposite directions as in some doubles.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/HOLLAND...un_id=100083742

http://www.gunsinternational.com/H&H...un_id=100071852

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Holland-&-Holland-8--BORE--Double-Rifle.cfm?gun_id=100060388

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: Huvius]
      #134242 - 03/05/09 12:27 AM

Buy em all!!!!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: DarylS]
      #134259 - 03/05/09 02:11 AM

Quote:

Buy em all!!!!!




Better hurry, one or two are already gone!!!

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: gatsby]
      #134277 - 03/05/09 06:53 AM

Nearly $40k a pop

What a f*cking rip-off. I dont suppose anyone ever thought that ooh hum maybe 'maybe' those prices are based on lottery winners and 'up from the gutter' business 'think tanks'?

What the hell has happened to our world........

I dare one of you to give an accurate comparison price today of the 1880 price for one of those. Now, taking into account that back in the good old days they were made for men to do a job, to really hunt, to survive and take many a head using them, I doubt they were $40k.......

All the best!

Ben

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: empirevr]
      #134280 - 03/05/09 07:20 AM

I can't say what exactly they sold for but near to or at asking. I don't think the average Joe was buying a big bore Holland and heading to Africa in 1880. All in all maybe more affordable today than 130 years ago. Ever watch Antique's Roadshow? With some made in Hong Kong toy in its original box selling for 8K, Tiffany glass for 30K+ and an old piece of crap straight backed New England chair for 130K, the Holland's seem like a bargin.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: gatsby]
      #134282 - 03/05/09 07:34 AM

I am a huge fan of the AR programme, (UK one, havent seen any other) but no, I must incline to disagree......Baker seems to have had eff-all money wise for example, Selous I am not sure on but pretty sure he was not rich or titled/both.

I shall see if I can find an 1880 catalogue with a price or two and use some other items to give conversion rates.

From what I remember, a Greener 8-bore double rifle was £20 or something, the equivalent of £5000 today I think I worked it out at.

Anyone got a catalogue?

Ben

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: empirevr]
      #134288 - 03/05/09 09:05 AM

It was a different world. What were wages and what opportunities to steady work did one have in 1890? The appendix in the book Holland The Royal Gunmaker list 1890's big bores at 40 to 60 guineas. That would be 6 to 12 months wages for the average worker and that wage would reflect little to no disposable income with working 6 day weeks 10 hour days.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: gatsby]
      #134291 - 03/05/09 11:15 AM

When I check the auctions, I see H&H large bores gong for upwards of 40,000 pounds only when it was one of Hollands personal guns - even shotguns.

I see most rifles going for around 20,000 or less, soemtimes much less.

Of course, we don't know what the final 'deal' was - perhaps an offer of $15,000 purchased them, we'll never know.

A gun is worth exactly you can get for it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: DarylS]
      #134299 - 03/05/09 01:24 PM

Quote:

When I check the auctions, I see H&H large bores gong for upwards of 40,000 pounds only when it was one of Hollands personal guns - even shotguns.

I see most rifles going for around 20,000 or less, soemtimes much less.

Of course, we don't know what the final 'deal' was - perhaps an offer of $15,000 purchased them, we'll never know.

A gun is worth exactly you can get for it.



I will guarantee the Holland 8 bore rifle didn't sell for under 20K US dollars and most likely not under 30K. Using auction prices as the sole parameter for valution for these older guns is near useless, unless you or someone you trust has seen or handled the particular firearm that auctioned.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Huvius
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: empirevr]
      #134348 - 04/05/09 01:18 AM

Quote:

From what I remember, a Greener 8-bore double rifle was £20 or something, the equivalent of £5000 today I think I worked it out at.



You may have just disproved your own argument.
There is a measure of relativity which has to be used when comparing wages/expenses from one era to another.
Let's say that that Greener cost 20GBP which converts to $5K in today's dollars.
If 20GBP was roughly the wages earned for a certain period of work, would $5K be equivalent today?
Very doubtful.
You are expecting a handmade big bore double to cost 10% of the average income in today's dollars!
In the 1880's, that greener was likely to cost as much or more than an average wage earners annual pay - and that was at 10hrs/day for 300 days per year!
Show me an English maker willing to build you a high quality 8bore double rifle today for under $40K! They simply cannot...

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empirevr
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: Huvius]
      #134371 - 04/05/09 07:11 AM

Hang on a tick old bean.......

I take it you are earning well, in which case well done! I would say the same, if the blighters had actually paid.

£5000 is, as a matter of fact, 33.3% of a very average UK wage. Some people are on £12,000 a year.

Snaffle in his eternal wisdom, states that the 8-bore was dearish and so were the express doubles. He was a captain, and from a well heeled family. He could however, afford 2 12 bore rifles and had his own odd-as-you-like gun made, description of which can be found posted under double rifles.

So, lets say then that maybe at a push the 8-bores were £8000-£10000 in today's money.

My reasoning is not so unfounded as you might think-in the period we are talking of these guns were commonly available tools, not prestige collectors toys.

Reminds me of Rolex, in their early days they werent thought of as anything very spectacular at all, only their oyster design really getting things going. Then since James Bond etc, they have become very specific collectors items.

Ah well........there we have it.

Anyone got any way of comparing some specific items from then and now? I have the issue covered in some historical books but am loath to go through them all for it.

Thanks

Ben

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: empirevr]
      #134381 - 04/05/09 08:25 AM

In 1890 2 to 3 pounds per week was for the best skilled laborer woking 60 to 72 hours weekly.Most of that income would be spent on mere survival, a room or small apartment and 1000 calories per day. Today a skilled worker (if he is employed) in the US, working just 40 hour weeks makes 30 to 45K annually and would have a considerable amount of expendable income if he lived as frugally as his 1890 conterpart. Overall it is really very difficult to compare. I am sure some professions make much more money today than they would in 1890, teachers,scientists,law enforcement etc. Comparing the cost to have Holland build a similar gun today would seem to be the best method.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: gatsby]
      #134432 - 04/05/09 07:06 PM

I see your point Gatsby, but my point is above all based upon the fact that the guns were more common then than now, and had a much greater success ratio, think of Greener's massive London premises for example.

What were the Merkel and Krieghoff of the day then?

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: empirevr]
      #135700 - 20/05/09 03:15 AM

$12,000 for this nice 12 bore shotgun is cheap! Good big game smooth-rifle as well.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: DarylS]
      #135711 - 20/05/09 04:47 AM

What are the particulars on the gun? You need a long lead using a flinter on moving game.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: gatsby]
      #135780 - 21/05/09 02:04 AM

Right-on- kinda-sort-of a flint shooter needs a constant lead on his target. Swinging past and pulling as done with cap-locks and modern guns will result in shots behind and in front as well as hits. Variable ignition times are the cause, so a constant lead is necessary for good hitting.
Ignition is very good with this gun's tuned locks, however they are still some 3 times slower than a caplock's ignition. (3 times slower, not a 1/3rd) Do not believe anyone who tells you their flint is as fast as a cap-gun - ain't so! and that's a fact.

This shotgun was made by my bro for a very good and dear friend who passed 2 years ago. We celebrate his life every year at Rondy by blowing some of his ashes from his cannon as a 9 o'clock salute, Wed. evening. His wish! Too- we all toast him with several to many "Rusty Nails" - his favourite at Rondy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (21/05/09 02:05 AM)

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: DarylS]
      #135792 - 21/05/09 07:17 AM

One of my favorite mixed drinks, the Rusty Nail. Not a bad way to be remembered either but I would be a bit apprehensive if I was down wind of those ashes, with a Rusty Nail in hand.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: gatsby]
      #135881 - 22/05/09 12:24 AM

NP Gatsby - The rustynails are after the cannon salute. Peter was loved by many and 'hung-on' until he'd said 'goodbye' to all friends at the Rendezvous. 14 days later, he died 'at peace' and remakably cheerful. An amazing man & one to be remembered.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: Oh those ubiquitous H&H 8bores! [Re: DarylS]
      #135936 - 22/05/09 04:22 PM

Then lets tip a dram to Peter.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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