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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #136133 - 26/05/09 01:44 AM

Shooting yesterday with .690+" (~14-bore, ~500grain) ball from Track.
Swiss 2f and 1.5f powder, 5-1/2 drams and the usual cup-shaped waxed card over-powder with lubricated wool felt wadding the rifle printed a bit higher on the target and slightly crossing, less vertical difference from Right/Left barrels. I think the rifle likes the better metallic gas seal of the slightly oversize ball (inside a .010" difference here)
Next time out it'll be more of this ball but a batch of them over 5 drams of Goex 2f and the same wadding.

The fouling from the Goex powder is much nicer - soft and wet from breech to muzzle and clean and consistent, the Swiss was flaky and hard. Since the rifle has enough case capacity for a good load on roundball with the Goex I'll be sticking with the red tin cans!
Also the next time out I'll likely have the chronograph running again.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #136148 - 26/05/09 08:37 AM

Looking forward to the chronograph data, Tinker.
The fouling 'test' seems polar opposite to what the muzzleloading boys are saying about Swiss vs GOEX.

Both Lee and Lyman make .690" moulds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: DarylS]
      #136149 - 26/05/09 09:41 AM

Daryl-


I too am looking forward to curing my chrono of it's headache and getting good readings on how this regulation load runs.


Funny with the fouling.
Swiss might have special magic around regulation loads for black powder express double rifles, but I'm not seeing it as having any particular edge between shots (in the fouling department)
I'm just not yet finding a good reason to run the expensive powder (in this rifle) or to deal with working a lube/wad combination to make it work.
Goex fouling with the previous wad column is soft and easy to deal with.
If I recall properly, this was also the case with the gamekeeper's rifle I sold last year, also with my Mahillon.

The Goex burns consistently too.
I've gotten great accuracy with it out of my flint rifle and my .54 caplock. Both of them foul soft and moist with the Goex powder (given the load has enough proper lube to do the job). Cleans easily at camp - but with the right lube I don't need to bother and can shoot day after day with no rust/corrosion issues if I keep the bores moist with fouling - even with my little carbon steel barreled .36 squirrel rifle.
I've gone days between cleaning my black powder rifles, shooting every day with no rust or pitting at all.
There's a little bit of load development focused on how much lube to include in the wad column, and it's worth it to me by way of consistent accuracy and ease of service, especially when we're talking about loading and running hunting cartridges.



Cheers
Tinker

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DarylS
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #136184 - 27/05/09 03:35 AM

Interesting coments about cleaning. I-too have gone a couple days, sometimes three before cleaning at Rendezvous but I generally don't mention it.

The reason I don't talk about it is this basically amounts to abuse in certain barrel steels that aren't of the harder alloys. 12L14 and L1011 come to mine as being suseptable to early rusting is not cleaning quickly and properly.

Proper ball/patch combinations will eliminate the need to clean or wipe often. With good combinations, the 100th shot is as accurate as the second. In my rifles with the ball/patch combinations I use testing wiping between shots and shooting 'dirty' I see better accuracy shot dirty. Just recently, I was testing my 14 bore rifle at the range and after shooting off well over a pound of powder, never wiping, I put two shots onto a fellows 100 meter target to test the 100 meter sight. The sight leaves were filed-in back in 1986 when the rifle was built by my Brother. My hunting load put two balls touching just above and to the right of the bullseye. The elevation might have been the way I was seeing the sight picture on the orange aiming point, or perhaps a bit of wind or even due to the lot # of the powder used today in comparisin to the powder of 1986. They were still in the 'kill zone' of even a very small animal like a ground squirrel standing upright.

Due to the success of some friends of mine with cloth patched undersized round balls in their duck guns, I've loaded up a few for testing from the 16 bore Husky, but so far, haven't tried them on target. For those with undersized moulds for their rifles and smoothbores, patched balls might be another answer to take up windage and also carry lubricant for keeping fouling soft. Soft fouling wipes out with each shot with proper combinations so that there is only 1 shot's fouling in the bore at any time. This is important to accuracy, as the bore's condition always remains the same, never changing.

Shot to shot consistancy results in accuracy as a reward.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: DarylS]
      #136186 - 27/05/09 05:52 AM

Daryl-

Talking about leaving black powder fouling in one's rifle is a definite taboo. In the wrong context or without proper preparation it's a recipe for disaster!
Shooting and hunting with 150 year old rifles would be considered foolhardy by some guys too, and what we're up to here is special gear, special preparation, and special handling.

Further, with consideration of some of the nitro-for-black recipes that are in use for these bore-rifles, there are guys who'd argue that chugging these big charges of black powder is unnecessary and potentially harmful to the rifles!

Any way it goes, my interest is to get one good consistent and accurate load that'll work well in the field in the context of real hunting situations.
As you know the quality of the fouling is half the effort.


On velocities, looking at mid-19th century conversations on 'express' loading, at the "1/4 bullet weight powder charge = ~1600fpsMV" rule, my guess is that I'm pushing or passing the 1600fpsMV mark with the five dram load.

The balls are weighing just about 500 grains.
500/4 = 125
5 drams black powder = 137 grains
The 140 grain charges with the slightly smaller ball shot beautifully, the next load is the ~.690 ball and 140 grains Goex FFg

We shall see.
So far this thing is looking like the "700 Black Powder Express 3 Inch Case"





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #136201 - 27/05/09 09:41 AM

The list I have is for a .693" ball (true 14 bore) to be 500gr. in pure lead by formula. My new 15 bore Tanner mold casts a bit undersize at 6gr. under 15 bore size- no problem.

As I achieved only 1,550fps with 191gr. in my 12 bore shotoing a .684" ball, I suspect you'll make close to that speed only with Swiss powder. Just speculation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: DarylS]
      #136203 - 27/05/09 09:59 AM

If I were knee-deep in a stream, fly fishing with you in the morning light - I'd challenge you to a bet for a fish sandwich for lunch!

Really, if I'm getting 1550fpsMV with the regulation load on the .690 ball I'll be happy as can be.
With the smaller bore and the tight fit I may end up with more pressure - then - velocity.
We shall see.

I'm going to sit at the big table tonight and have a little talk with my chronograph. I'm too thrifty and crafty to simply ditch it and order a new set of sensors and screens.
It will come back to service tonight (!) and I'll have it with me for the next string of shots.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #136242 - 28/05/09 12:15 AM

Love to take you for a Salmon flyfishing experience on the ******* River. With good conditions and this year looks to be shaping up for a good run, you can catch and release 30 to 40 in an 8 hour period if you want - limit to keep is 2 per day, total 4 in possession.

Come fish with me. Got one on as you can see - 15' Orvis double hander - much more than enough rod, of course.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: DarylS]
      #136426 - 30/05/09 08:10 PM

Daryl,

Keep me on your list of prospects too! I have been thinking about northern BC a lot these days and wondering how the fishing is.

Will the authorities allow me to travel with a rifle if I come? There would have to be a lot of shooting in between the fishing. Sure would like to bring a BPE.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: CptCurl]
      #136433 - 30/05/09 11:27 PM

I'd check with the firearms branch on bringing in a rifle. Hunters do, as you know so it isn't a big problem. Hanguns are verboten, though. I have a few if you want to plink.
Got my 14 bore back - he says to stop my whining. Put 2 pounds through it already - shoulder holding up with a PAST mag pad strapped on. Best group so far is only 2 shots - .6" @ 100 meters - 6 drams + a .684" ball. I've shot a few groups at 100 meters with15 bore balls in testing, running 2 1/2' - getting better, but it does like the larger ball.

Fishing guys - rainbow alley is just out from the lodge - 'bows' to 8 pounds - char to 30.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: DarylS]
      #136521 - 02/06/09 02:08 AM

Daryl-



The fishing looks great.
Took the WR up into the Sierras this weekend for a hike through old mining country. Put ten rounds through it that I'd loaded with the bigger roundball I had here.
Yours are up next.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Mike_Johnson
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Reged: 17/10/09
Posts: 104
Loc: York, Pa
Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #144387 - 25/10/09 09:21 AM

definately need a drool alert on that one. WR does good work. Very nice.

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