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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question
      #13400 - 13/04/04 02:11 AM

Hi folks,

I have always wanted a double rifle and like my always wanted a Ferrari fantasy, I can't afford one. However, every once in a while I'll see a double rifle made on a shotgun frame at a gun show for 1/4 the price of a good English double. I can almost afford one of these. What are the forum members thoughts about these guns and what should I be looking for when I'm examining one. Before someone suggests that I just save for a "real" double rifle, keep in mind I have one child in college and another 2 years away so saving is not possible for the next 6-8 years. An alternative is to sell (gasp) my NWMP Winchester 1876 Carbine (1 of 1100 used by the Mounties in the 19th Cent.) but I'd like to avoid making that choice if I can. Thank you for your help.

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Levallois]
      #13447 - 13/04/04 10:10 PM

If you find one of B.Searcy's early ones built on a Browning BSS action, you don't have a worry, unless someone has damaged it! Anything can be destroyed, if enough effort is applied!
They don't look as good as some others, but they are strong, and they shoot very well, at least every one I have had anything to do with has! There is a man in California who bought one of these BSS actioned double rifles,from Butch, to use for 470NE load testing! He has shot several thousand rounds through it, and then sold it to a PH in Africa. It was still on face, and tight!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Levallois]
      #13470 - 14/04/04 09:19 AM

What caliber (small medium or large) and what type of hunting/shooting do you intend to do with this double?
Do you want a side by side only or will an over/under suffice?
What sort of money can you afford?
Once we know the answers to these questions maybe we can steer you in the right direction.

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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #13476 - 14/04/04 09:57 AM

Dugaboy1,

Thanks - I'll look around for a Searcy.

4seventy,

It doesn't have to be fancy or engraved, just sighted and regulated for a larger cartridge, say 9.3x74R or .375 H&H or larger. Going to Africa in 2006 (before the kid's college bills start to pile up) and will hunt up to Kudu size - but none of the big 5. Thought it would be neat to use a double. I don't care for o/u rifles or shotguns. It's got to be a SxS. I'm not sure about what I'd want to spend but I don't think more than $3000 without selling the Winchester. I've already got a couple of nice old bolt actions - a Mannlicher and a Beesley - if the double rifle doesn't happen.

Thanks again for the reponses!

John




--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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RobertD
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 67
Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Levallois]
      #13485 - 14/04/04 02:32 PM

John,

Check out the Kodiak Mark IV Double Rifle. Very nice price, given that it is new. And, given our economy, you can get some very very good deals at some distributors right now, too!

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/eng/search.asp

They come in two grades and three calibers: 8x57R, 9.3x74, and 45-70. You want the lower of the two grades, as the more expensive one is sent out to be engraved. It isn't a rolled on engraving.

RobertD

--------------------
NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
SCI Golden Gate Member

"Time is never found, if you want time for something, you have to make it."

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Tom_Bigbore
.224 member


Reged: 16/01/04
Posts: 44
Loc: Germany
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Levallois]
      #13500 - 14/04/04 09:07 PM

If you have a few weeks to wait, I can provide some photos of my double (outside hammers, like the Kodiak) that should be completed in ~8 weeks.
It has exchange barrels in 500/465 NE; 9,3 x 74 R and12/76. It is hand engraved and I choosed color cased hardened finnish. It will have open sights on the 500/465 NE barrel set. The 9,3 will be with open sights and has mounts for a glass.
The price is somehow were you want it. I could give further info if you are interested in having one.

BTW, I had a chat with Mr. Pedersoli and the gun proofhouse on building the NE from a 45/70 barrel set. But they didnīt recommend it. (You know, itīs my money if proofing fails, so I was not willed to have it built)

I found another manufacturer and I could even choose from a bunch of options. (standard calibers are 8x57; 9,3 x 74R;45/70;444 Marlin)

BR Tom

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Tom_Bigbore]
      #13510 - 15/04/04 01:19 AM

Tom

There are no proof rules in the US so people do some pretty strange things with 45-70s. Not many people talk about the Marlins and other guns that they blow apart from foolshness.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Tom_Bigbore
.224 member


Reged: 16/01/04
Posts: 44
Loc: Germany
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: mickey]
      #13533 - 15/04/04 09:06 PM

Mickey,
I feel much safer to know that ALL guns in Europe have to have the proofhouse past. That is aside some smaller checks as chamber measurement and headspace, a proof firing with specially loaded cartridges that provide 30% more chamber pressure than the max. pressure of a specific cartridge as described in CIP. After firing, chamber measurement and headspacing must be the same as before.
Cartridges are not allowed to have more pressure than max. CIP, so I always have a 30% margin for ...whatsoever...
The manufacturer in Europe who is producing my double will of course provide proof firing for every single barrel, so I can be sure the gun will last even under bad condicions. (Donīt speaking of plugging the barrels ;-) )

br Tom

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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Tom_Bigbore]
      #13576 - 16/04/04 01:56 PM

RobertD,

I know about the Kodiak but I thought that some owners were having trouble with accuracy - something about the barrels not being properly regulated? Maybe I'm wrong about this as I can't find the web site that I saw this on.

BR Tom,

Yes, I'd like to know more about the rifle you're having built?

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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Tom_Bigbore
.224 member


Reged: 16/01/04
Posts: 44
Loc: Germany
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Levallois]
      #13599 - 16/04/04 11:40 PM

I first had the Kodiak checked for having bored to 500/465 NE or 470 NE, but the frame is only for a 20 Gauge shotgun. Pedersoli would have provided a extra set of barrels in 45/70 which I then had to rebore. They declined any warranty after. Again, my very competend gunsmith (made a Ruger #1 in .577 NE for me) and the proofhouse inspected the frame and they said itīs quite small and very "hollow" milled.
The Kodiak barrels have no cone for regulating and I donīt know if and how how the are regulated from Pedersoli. I had no chance to shoot the one I had for checking, but a buddy of mine said that he once had one and it shot totally unaccurate with the unability to regulate. He sold it.

My frame is big enough for a 12 Gauge and the gunmaker and gunsmith donīt see a problem. It will have cones and it will be regulated for ammo I choose.

Iīve been told that I can see my rifle at the end of the month. It will not be fully completed but my trigger finger starts ticking the closer it gets. I will post some pics.

br Tom

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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Tom_Bigbore]
      #13606 - 17/04/04 04:01 AM

Butch has one of his old Browning SS in 375 H&H for sale right now for what its worth...

I don't want a double rifle that is made on a shotgun frame myself, but I know that Rich Stickly and Butch all made some good doubles on the BSS and they have all held up very well indeed...

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: atkinson6]
      #16972 - 21/07/04 09:49 PM

TTT

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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30WCF
.224 member


Reged: 30/10/04
Posts: 3
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Levallois]
      #20194 - 30/10/04 02:10 AM

new to this forum, not overly educated, however i have built a couple of side by side rifles on shotgun actions. both were 30-30 winchester, one a stevens mod 365 16 ga. and the other a remington mod 1894 16 ga. in both cases i sleeved barrels into the existing shotgun barrels. 25" bbl length. i fitted the inserts at the muzzle with an ecentric bushing, additionally i fitted one inch collar over the insert that i could slide back and forth between the chamber and ecentric bushing fitted with a set screw to secure the collar. one rifle was scoped the other open sighted. the ecentric collar helped much in regulating the barrels however at 75 yards you get to a point they simply would not come together. i had read an article in the double gun journal a few years ago about a gentlemen who added the collar and everything worked. once i added the collar each rifle came into their own. each gun equally at 75 yards will consistently shoot both barrel's to point of aim and into 2.5" groups. the only other work i did was bushed the firing pins and modified the extraxtors. this still turned out to be a lot of work but its a poor mans double and here in georgia all i hunt is deer. i chose the 30-30 simply beacuse in factory loading its low pressue and rimmed. the inserts were turned pretty thin between the chamber and muzzle but after 400 rounnds in each gun they haven't become self openers yet. any comments would be appreciated. i plan to began another project next month in 30-40 Krag. Great Forum

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: 30WCF]
      #20215 - 30/10/04 10:40 AM

30WCF:
The main concern with building a double this way is weight. A double in .30-30 would be a delight at 6 to 7 pounds or so, but by inserting the rifle barrels inside a shotgun you are already starting with the full weight of the shotgun and adding the weight of 2 additional rifle barrels. Even though you turn them down pretty thin, its all weight added forward of the action.

Now that you've successfully done a couple this way, why not try a proper sleeving job for your next project. I assume you are aware of Ellis Brown's book on the subject, seems like you will have already done 3/4 of the work anyway, and missed out on the fun of rib-laying! You should still turn the barrels down quite thin especially towards the muzzles, something most gunsmiths are quite reluctant to do judging by the e-mails I receive. They will not 'whip' or 'flip' (?) because they are stiffened by the ribs and second barrel.

Regular posters will be bored with this reference by now, but I tossed up a story about a .577 built this way:
http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/GreenerStory.htm

BTW, welcome to the forum, mate! I can already tell you will like it here.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Peterb
.333 member


Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Tom_Bigbore]
      #20282 - 31/10/04 04:01 PM

Actually, not ALL guns in Europe ARE proof tested. We found a shotgun which had the proof stamp but had never been chambered. We found that some countries only proof samples from lots.

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30WCF
.224 member


Reged: 30/10/04
Posts: 3
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: Marrakai]
      #20348 - 02/11/04 04:27 AM

i have the book you reference and have read it through twice. laying the ribs appears to be an interesting part of the process. i hope that the next time i post i'll be able to show some pictures of a side by side rifle built proper.
thanks for the response

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unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: 30WCF]
      #20365 - 02/11/04 09:29 AM

As of the time I learned this, some years ago when I talked to the guy who owned Trail Guns Armoury and instigated the Kodiaks, the Pedersoli was not regulated in the sense that a British best would be. That's what kept the cost down. The barrels were assembled in a jig so that in the finished reult the barrels would shoot fairly close together but did not have true regulation.

It was indicated to me that there was a bit of trade secret involved as at the time CVA sold a muzzle loading double that was jig assembled and laser aligned but did not do nearly as well as the Pedersoli for the barrels shooting close together.

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Double Rifle on Shotgun Frame question [Re: unspellable]
      #20392 - 03/11/04 02:44 AM

My brother had a Pederosoli Kodiak 45/70 and it regulated extreemly well with several divverent loads from factory 300 grain to my souped up 405 grain loads. It shot Cor-Bon and Garretts Hammerheads into the same group at 50 yards as well.
Levallois, Try and find a Kodiak and test fire it.
Or maybe you could find a used Chapuis in 9,3x74R fairly close to your price limit. I am very happy with my Chapuis 9,3. I have hunted with it quite a bit here in the States as well as a black bear in Canada and plains game in ZIM.
My 9,3 is scoped and that really adds to the versatility.
It is my favorite rifle under .40 cal.

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