Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1
Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Alex Henry 450 3 1/4
      #133505 - 26/04/09 02:43 AM

I just purchased the Alex Henry which is on Champlin Arms website. It is even more beautiful than his great photos show. What balance. Well, I guess I couldn't stop there so found another one with Damascus barrels within 50 of the serial number range. The gentleman that owns it has had it in his possession for 40 some years with tools, brass, mold, a non- AH case and, best of all, his duplex load touches at 50 yards. I must have a disease or something. Will be posting pics when the new one gets here in June. Love those Jones underlever hammerless.

One problem that I noticed is that my once fired Nitro Express 450 3 1/4 won't chamber the last couple of thou in Alex's chambers, even after resizing. This includes Kynoch and HDS brass. However, new cases (and loaded NE rounds) will chamber. Don't know if it is a sizing die problem as I mike the measurements on both once fired NE and the new rounds and they are about identical in measurement. Any thoughts? I will be ordering new cases as I only have about 20 new ones to use.

Dutch, lover of all things Alex Henry


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Dutch44]
      #133507 - 26/04/09 02:53 AM

Congrats.

Could just be tight chambers ?

Maybe worth slugging the bore as well before shooting it.

Edited by 500Nitro (26/04/09 03:47 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Dutch44]
      #133509 - 26/04/09 03:31 AM

Nigel is right. You should slug those chambers before you shoot that gun!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: ]
      #133522 - 26/04/09 06:02 AM

I think I will take your advice.


Dutch


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Dutch44]
      #133527 - 26/04/09 06:30 AM

Smart boy

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Arctic
.275 member


Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 87
Loc: Arctic Canada
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: ]
      #133530 - 26/04/09 07:23 AM

I've run into this before with Alex Henry, both times with single shots. First time all brass would stop .040" short, .....had to be their chambering, so borrowed a reamer and just lengthend a tad, .....now works well.

Second time, like you, the problem was brass fired in another gun. Determined that the first gun was a bit oversize in the chamber (most like due to wear), and wasn't being resized the last 1/8" by the dies, so wouldn't fit any of my other rifles in that caliber. Had to make a sleeve to manually drive down to the rim and resize that portion that's normally in the shellholder. Easiest solution became to earmark the oversize brass for that rifle only and keep a separate bunch of brass for the other rifle/rifles that I had.

~Arctic~

--------------------
"A stranger is a friend we haven't met!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Arctic]
      #133531 - 26/04/09 07:39 AM


considering all the whinging about the cost of brass,
To get the maximum out of brass you should only use it
in one gun.

The more you use it in other guns, the more it
stretches at different places.

The same applies to bolt actions.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133537 - 26/04/09 10:53 AM

I would suspect you have tight necks and the loaded rounds that drop in are crimped and your resized cases are not. In my Holland 500/450 I have to crimp into the cannelure or the cartridges won't drop all the way in. Brass from this era was typically much thinner than brass from today and problems with tight chambers and necks are very common with early rifles.





Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: 470evans]
      #133569 - 26/04/09 08:36 PM

Did I read in Burrard or somewhere that the cross-eyed aspect of db rifle barrels can cause the rim of the case to distort as it moves back against the standing breech? Could this explain reloading trouble like Dutch44's? Whoever put forward that assertion was probably not into reloading, as I recall him saying the only way to reuse the case would be to put it back in the same chamber, the same way it came out.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Paul]
      #133586 - 27/04/09 02:05 AM


Paul

That IMHO has more to do with how the chmabers were cut.

Sometimes you get DR's that have different chambers
which is NOT good IMHO and means you need to FLRS
all the cases all the time.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133665 - 27/04/09 10:48 PM


Thanks Nigel, but have you ever heard of case heads being distorted in the way I mentioned, beyond the help of full-length resizing? I guess it would amount to excess headspace on one side of the case.
- Paul


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Paul]
      #133670 - 27/04/09 11:16 PM

Should be easy to determine by lining up fired cases standing in a row.
If the distances between the case mouths are equal, there is no distortion.
In a case as long as the 450 3-1/4, should be pretty obvious, even to the naked eye.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Huvius]
      #133676 - 27/04/09 11:39 PM

Artic:
I ended up lubing the cases well and running a couple through the sizing die without a shell holder. Used a .22 Hornet shell holder to run it up all the way into the die. Ran it out with a metal dowel rod that fit the case and, voila, it chambered perfectly. A friend is going to face off a m/m of the bottom of the die in hopes that this will solve the problem. My fired brass was out of a Rigby hammer 450 3 1/4 Nitro.

470evans:
I had thought that maybe the crimp would be a problem. I put a crimp on the brass that I had initially inserted but they still did not want to chamber. That's when I called my friend and he made the suggestion to push the case up the die without the holder.

500Nitro:
I am taking your advice and dedicating brass to each rifle. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

Generalwar:
My friend that will be working on the die will be slugging the bore and utilizing a "v" something-or-other and a point indicator something-or-other for the 7 land/groove. Once I have correct measurements then all set to load, if bore/groove diameter is correct for caliber.


Dutch


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Dutch44]
      #133687 - 28/04/09 02:41 AM

Quote:

Artic:
A friend is going to face off a m/m of the bottom of the die in hopes that this will solve the problem. My fired brass was out of a Rigby hammer 450 3 1/4 Nitro.




This happens at times. Die manufcturers have minimum and maximum tolerances. Shaving a few though off a die's bottom is a common practise amongst wildcat shooters.

I agree that ammo should not be transfered between different guns. Expansion charcteristics differ gun to gun and oversizing to fit one, makes them sloppy for the other - somtimes degrading performance and definitely reducing productive life of the brass.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: DarylS]
      #133695 - 28/04/09 04:00 AM

Glad to hear you found the solution, thanks for posting it. It sounds like a very nice gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: 470evans]
      #134129 - 01/05/09 11:26 PM

Slugged the bore last night with a v-anvil and pins. Seems the bore diameter is .460 and the grove is .466-467, measured 10 inches from the breach. The right chamber had a very small burr next to the extractor which looked like a minute shaving. However, you could see the mark it left on the brass case. One pass with an extremely fine file took care of that problem. We then shaved off the bottom of the sizing die, which, to my surprise, had been previously machined off. Well, this took care of the right chamber but the left was still a very minute tight. I'll take the sizing die back for one last pass and that should clean this problem up. Will still use dedicated brass for each rifle.

Now, it appears, I will have my friend construct me one of his adjustable paper patch bullet moulds in .457-8 bore diameter to patch at 465-6 groove. With black this should do well. I am loading a duplex load to shoot tomorrow with 10 grains of 4759 and 90 of black with those soft lead .458 slugs just to see what happens with the undersized bullets bumping up. The Summer 2007 DGJ has an excellent article on the "progressive cut" Henry rifling and the measurements on the specimen measured for the article (a Henry 450 3 1/4) was .471 for groove. You can definitely feel the choke in these barrels. That's why it was necessary to measure 10 inches from the breach to get an accurate idea of the bore.

I'll let you know how it shoots tomorrow.

Dutch


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Dutch44]
      #134133 - 02/05/09 12:03 AM

Dutch - Paul Mathews book "The Paper Jacket" is well worth buying and reading. After doing this myself, I finally got my brothers Sharps to shoot well with lead and black powder.

We use bullets that just fit the bore after the paper patch was added. They can be pushed through the bore easily and leave light rifling marks on the bullet. Due to this 'fit', any number of rounds (up to about 20) can be chambered and fired easily. Fouling does not interfer with chambering a round as happens with full sized patched bullets that stick out from the case.

The accuracy achieved in his .45 3-1/4" was 1.5MOA at 100 yards and 1moa at 200 in his rifle, slightly better in my RB with R.Hoch barrel. This type of loading also worked well in my .45 3-1/4" rolling block with 580gr. bullets.

The Hock mould that casts a smoothsided paper patching bullet, adjustable from about 380gr. to 580gr. would work well. The bullet as comes from the mould is .451" and after patching will be bore size for your 'Henry'. Adjust patch thickness to adjust diameter. The bullets we used were .440" as cast. We plunge-cut smaller Lyman & Ohaus moulds ourselves with a ground # or letter drill. The same could be done for your rifle.

It is amazing how well they slug up and fill the grooves. We followed Pauls method at that time of using a disk of wax paper on the powder (pre-compressed 1/8"- the rifle will tell you how much to compress) then a lube ball that was 1/8" thick, then disk of wax paper, then card wad, then bullet. Due to being bore size, they can be loaded to any length you want. BTW - I lubed the outside of the bullets with the same lube, rubbed on. "Buffalo Arms" has quite a lot of paper patching supplies - moulds, patch paper and lube.

After firing 10 shots, a single dry patch pushed through the bore pushes out the fouling completely. THIS is the test of your lube - enough quantity and right lube. You'll need a good black powder lube - I used 60% Beeswax(1st filtering wax) + 40% Vaseline. Others have used Beeswax/Olive oil with same results. SPG and Lymans BP Gold should also work.

As you know, if it fouls in the breech, the lube is too hard, if it fouls at the muzzle, not enough lube. There should be a slight smear of lube on the muzzles after firing the first shot from each barrel. Increasing the size of the lube ball or changing it's consitency handles not enough lube situations, or hardness of the lube can be adjusted with more or less oil in the mix for the home lube mixes. SPG should work perfectly, by adjusting only the quantity of the lube disk. The wax paper disk cutter can be made from a sharpened case spun in a drill press or Arch Punch.

Pouring molten lube on top of a bucket of water will give you a sheet of lube that can be pushed down over a charged case to give a 'grease cookie' of consistant thickness. That's one method. Pouring into a non-stick pie or cake dish is the method I use. (she's still looking for it) Grease cookie dies that extrude a cookie can be made or purchased.

Fun stuff. Hope this helps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: DarylS]
      #134149 - 02/05/09 01:25 AM

Daryl:
Thanks for the info. I use to shoot pp in my Sharps 45-70 but used a tapered bullet. I do love those Hoch moulds. I would want a tapered projectile, though. Being adjustable will be a boon to me as the correct weight projectile for these rifles is 270-350 and I'm going to experiment with that range once I have the mould.

I use SPG almost exclusively as it works for me and Steve is a good friend. I have used Emmert lube alot for smokeless but I find that SPG works for smokeless too. I'll take your advise and reduce the diameter to accomodate the chamber/throat.

Dutch


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Dutch44]
      #140185 - 07/08/09 11:03 PM

Is this gun back at Champlin's?

Was there an issue with it?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: Huvius]
      #140206 - 08/08/09 08:04 AM

Dutch44

Have another think about shaving a few thou of your sizing die. If the issue is your shell bases are not being sized down for your tight Henry chambers and presumably you have the shell holder in the ram bumping the base of the die, then shaving the die will not do a thing for your problem. Shaving the die only helps if the shoulder of a bottle neck case is not being pushed back enough from a stretched case from an oversized chamber.

Your issue appears to be the base portion of the shell in the shell holder is not being sized down as it does not go into the die. On another post our learned friend Von Gruff has the right answer - shave the top of the shell holder thus allowing more of the shell base to enter the die. You only then sacrifice a cheap shell holder without touching the die. This also works for pushing back case shoulders as well. Shaving a die does not alter the die/shell holder interface.

Hopefully you can shave the shell holder down enough without weakening it, to allow case extraction from the sizing die and the case base will be sized down enough to fit your Henry chambers.
If not then your method of forcing the case completely into the die using a pusher shell holder and a dowel to punch the case back out is the only solution to get your case sized down the first time for the Henry chambers.

Hope this is all clear and helps.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: eagle27]
      #140209 - 08/08/09 10:17 AM

E27 has a good point -

I have a few shell holders that have been modified, some with spacer shims that allow the rims to sit closer to the cuff, some with the faces thinned, some with both little modifications.

Careful with the thinned shell holders.
Make double damn sure you've used enough case lube at the bases so that you don't stick a case in the die and pull the cuff off the case holder.
It happens.
When you thin the face of your shell holder, you're also taking the case hardening off the part too.
They will break.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: tinker]
      #140229 - 09/08/09 01:36 AM

E27 seems to have missed the point of shortening the die Tinker - shaving a few though of the bottom of the die, for straight sided cases, that is, effectively reduces the diameter of the inside of the die at the base, which in turn sizes the case down a couple thou more. The die must then be polished around it's new base. Some guys grind a bit off a shell holder, but I find that unnessessarily weakens the shell holder. I prefer to grind some off the base. All brass is tapered - shortening the die reduces the inside diameter at it's new base. This 'system' doesn't work for bottlenecked cases where the shoulder will get pushed back (unless that's the reason for shortening) - it works splendidly for straight cases for reducing the base diameter of the case being sized. Some brass, like .348 Win. brass is so heavy in the base area, that a few thou. can be turned off the base in a lathe - others don't have that much material, and swaging or sizing is necessary.

FL and seater dies can also use used for bullet sizing - match the sizes and tapers you need and shove the lubed bullet up inside to a preset level, then push it back out - the result is a tapered, lubed bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: DarylS]
      #140236 - 09/08/09 07:53 AM

Daryl

Granted shaving the die will do as you say but it still won't size down the last part of the base of the cartridge that is inside the shell holder . When the chambers were cut on Dutch44's rifle it appears from his description that they are a little undersized at the shell base end. Being a rimmed round the whole base of the shell must go into the chamber. You may get there by shaving the die but you have then forever shortened the die. Sacrificing a shell holder is cheaper and will achieve the same thing or better if it is the base in the shell holder that does indeed need sizing.

As you know dies all have a bevelled shoulder to prevent scrapping the brass and you do lose a little sizing effect from this. By shaving the die you can eliminate all or some this bevel and gain a bit more sizing at the head end of the case.

At the end of the day the method that Dutch is using will probably be enough as the cases may only just need the base sizing down the first time. I don't know if he has tried reloading shells fired in his Henry yet just by resizing in his unaltered die or shellholder.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Alex Henry 450 3 1/4 [Re: eagle27]
      #140777 - 19/08/09 09:56 AM

Huvius:
There are absolutely no issues with the rifle. I was given a great opportunity to head back to Tanz after DG and needed to put that rifle and it's brother up for sale. They both shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards using 4198 and the Lyman 457122 325 grain HP bullet, for which both were regulated. They are the most balanced rifles I have ever owned. Beautiful, as well.

My brother was in Edinburgh in June of this year and the boys at Dickson-McNaughton were great and accommodating in allowing them to research and copy the day book entries for these rifles. I followed up with the research from there and included the provenance on both rifles that George printed on the ads at Champlins. The last target I shot is with George as well. #6589 was in the possession of the same individual for 47 years before I purchased it. I have newspaper accounts, as well as pictures, of his taking wild boar and other game, with that rifle.

At my age I do not want to pass up an opportunity to go back to Tanz. Will use my 450-400 3 1/4 and .375 while there.

Dutch


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 198 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 7167

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved