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Ulfhere
.224 member


Reged: 06/10/07
Posts: 16
Loc: AL
T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double
      #133318 - 24/04/09 07:01 AM

I've just acquired a double rifle by Thomas Bland & Sons, chambered for the 577/500 2-13/16 inch cartridge (aka Westley Richards No 2 Express). It was advertised as a 500 Express taper case, maybe 3-1/4 inch, but my taper 500s just fell in the chamber and I realized it was a 577/500 (the barrels are simply marked 500 Ex). At first I thought it was a 577/500 3-1/8 inch, but I did a better job of measuring the depth to the shoulder. It was built in the early 1890s and has modern Enfield rifling.

I don't have any dies yet. Any suggestions? CH-4D is the only outfit that I know makes these.

I am also interested in the experiences of anyone who has loaded for this cartridge. I want to find a load that I can regulate for what was termed the Special Long Range loading of a 570 grain bullet. But I also want a basic 440 grain (or equivalent) express load.

Regards

Hal


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crusty
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Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 29
Loc: New Zealand
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: Ulfhere]
      #133329 - 24/04/09 10:01 AM

Hal,

I bought some some CH dies for my No.2 Express, good dies. I think this was a black powder cartridge originally with 340 grain lead bullet, but was loaded nitro for black with a 440 grain jacketted bullet. Is you gun nitro proofed?

I have the following loads listed - data from an old catalogue, page entitled
Standard ballistics of English cartridges.



Nitro for Black - 53 gr Cordite, 440 gr bullet, 1,675 fps
Black powder - 130 gr bp, 340 gr bullet, 1,850 fps
Black powder - 130 gr BP, 380 gr bullet, 1,775 fps

check out posting in reloading section - details from Marrakai

577/500 No2

Edited by crusty (24/04/09 10:06 AM)


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Ulfhere
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Reged: 06/10/07
Posts: 16
Loc: AL
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: crusty]
      #133333 - 24/04/09 10:17 AM

Thanks, Crusty! No, I can't find any nitro proofs, but I don't think the 577/500 No 2 ever had a nitro analogue. Its a very late blackpowder rifle, so its plenty strong, but probably not made from the more expensive steels used with nitro cartridges at the time.

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
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Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: Ulfhere]
      #133426 - 25/04/09 07:23 AM

Hal,
Congrats on the new rifle and it's a great cartridge. The original loads were 340 and 380 gr bullets and 130 gr of black. The nitro for black load was 53 gr cordite and a 440 gr short jacketed bullet. There are a couple of heavier bullets listed for the 3 1/8" cartridge up to the 570 gr bullet you mentioned, but not for the shorter case. There was not a full blown nitro express load or rifles produced for either as far as I can find. Anywho the load I've been using is 53 gr of IMR 4198, a magnum primer,13 gr of dacron and a 370 gr bullet from a modified Lyman 515141 mould. This load regulates well in my Manton double. I've tried some black powder loads but that is still a work in progress.
Have fun and let us know how it works.


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Ulfhere
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Reged: 06/10/07
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Loc: AL
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #133583 - 27/04/09 12:26 AM

Does anyone have Load from a Disk or something similar that has the case capacity for this cartridge and also for the 50-140 Sharps?

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: Ulfhere]
      #133588 - 27/04/09 02:16 AM

Ulfhere-

Have you owned/shot a double rifle before?
Developing a load for your double rifle will demand a different process than you're likely accustomed to from shooting your single barreled rifles.

The first thing you *need to do* is cast your chambers with Cerrosafe alloy or a similar material, so that you can positively identify your chambers one way or the other.
You also need to slug your bores to make double damn sure what bullet size to run.

If you're going to have someone make you dies for your rifle, you might as well be prepared to send them a chamber casting anyway so that you have *exactly what you need*, granted with the low operating pressures of Black Powder Express cartridges you'll likely only need to neck size as the proper load won't be pushing your brass very hard at all.

Now I'm going to paste some words from another member, from a response he'd given very recently to someone in a similar position. A few words have been changed to suit your situation...

_________________
"You said your rifle is a double. I assume you're new to them. It isn't a single barrel rifle, so don't try to treat it like one. Everything changes.

Double rifles are wonderful general purpose hunting rifles. Much of their beauty is in their simplicity. They're regulated for one standard (full power) load. In handloading for one, once you've duplicated the load it was regulated with, you're set. All you have to worry about is that one load, and one bullet in that one weight. Don't start out trying to make light loads or "pet" loads of other shooters work. Barring luck, they won't regulate and will only frustrate you. Yes, reduced loads can be made to work in some double rifles, but that's for later. To start, you need to find the load it was regulated for.

Since most rifles like yours were regulated with a standard shape and grain weight bullet, but not all, I'd start with that weight. They were also built to shoot with a standard load of powder at a relatively standard velocity.
For the sake of standards, there were no victorian-era double rifles built to run sharps cartridges. The sharps cartridges ran much differently than express cartridges, typically with much heavier bullets at lower velocities, the express cartridges ran lighter bullets with flatter initial trajectories.
You'll need to prepare yourself with some knowledge of the original black powder load, then use a standard nitro-for-black conversion ratio, then start a few grains low, and work up shooting over a chronograph. Don't fire multiple rights and then multiple lefts. Fire in pairs in right/left order (that's the order they're regulated with). Note where the rights strike relative to the lefts. Generally, if they consistently strike wide (right on right and left on left, several inches apart), velocity is too low. If they cross (right on left and left on right), the velocity is too high. If the barrels are still wide at suggested proper regulation velocity, STOP, and try another powder. Perfect regulation puts the rights on the right and the lefts on the left ~3/4" apart at 50 yards.

Like I said, everything changes. When handloading for Black Powder Express double rifle cases in drop-down barrel actions, you can't use conventional pressure signs to keep you out of trouble. By the time they appear, you're over proof pressure. I never attempt load development in a double rifle without a chronograph.

_____________________________




It's likely that getting your rifle so shoot well will take a little bit of research and take you on a bit of a
*'Nitro for Black' handloading for double rifle*
learning curve.
Take the "double rifles are different from other rifles" approach and distinguish the important and unique characteristics of the effort before you dig too deeply into loading/shooting bench time.
That'll save you time in the end, and possibly save you quite a bit of hassle and money in the mid-long run.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Ulfhere
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Reged: 06/10/07
Posts: 16
Loc: AL
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: tinker]
      #133612 - 27/04/09 07:25 AM

Thanks, Tinker. Yes, this is my first double rifle and yes, I am aware of the idiosyncrasies of their proper functioning. I'm aware of the standard NFB conversion using IMR-4198 or H-4198. I am also aware of several other powders that have worked for Sherman Bell and others, including RL-7, RL-15 and Varget. My interest in comparing the case capacities is to give me another reference point on pressures besides chronographed muzzle velocity for powders other than 4198. I am eagerly awaiting the 3rd edition of Graeme Wright's book. The suggestion of making a chamber cast is a good idea. The dies on my 577/450 MH are very different from the chamber on my rifle. I wish I had a better fit on that one.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: Ulfhere]
      #133620 - 27/04/09 09:30 AM

Ulfhere-


Good.
My first comment would have been something like
'fire form a case from each chamber, then check your H20 volume'
but I figured I'd do the standard double rifle reality check first.

Don't expect the chambers of any two (insert name of whatever brit express cartridge here) chambered express rifles be exactly alike -- anything could have happened or been requested back when the rifle was built - or since then.
The only way to know for sure what's going on in there is to find out yourself.
Pop a couple pieces of brass with your favorite cream-of-wheat recipe for the water volume and slug the bores for bullet size.
That'll clear up a thing or two while your cerrosafe order comes in from Brownells.

You might get lucky and be able to fire-form readily available brass, then neck size from there while you wait for the custom dies to come in from RCBS or CH4D or wherever you choose.

Some guys get lucky and hit a regulation load on the first try.
You might even bag some game with the thing while you're at it.
Stranger things have happened.
I ripped the brain stem out of the first piece of live running fur that I pointed my Tolley at (rifle in my signature line) one day on the ranch while working out a regulation load.
I wish you the same kind of luck, but on something bigger and more appetizing than the skunk I killed that day.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: tinker]
      #134937 - 09/05/09 09:24 PM

ulfhere

could you please post a few pictures of your gun as i have just bought a couple of t. bland sidelock actions, they scream to be made into a composed pair of dbl. rifles

best

peter


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Ulfhere
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Reged: 06/10/07
Posts: 16
Loc: AL
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: peter]
      #134963 - 10/05/09 06:09 AM

Here are some pics of mine. Its a working rifle. Its plain and has seen a lot of use (evident in the sweat corrosion on the left barrel and the right side lock and the repairs to triggers, trigger guard and buttplate, restocking, etc.). There is even more perceptible wear on the rifling in the right barrel vs the left, suggesting that the hunter generally required only one shot. I have a, perhaps romantic, notion that this rifle was used by a professional hunter for many years. It isn't mint original finish, but it has nice bores with modern Enfield rifling so it will digest jacketed bullets with more alacrity than Henry or Metford rifling. Its mechanically sound and has all the features that I wanted in a double rifle: Back action, Jones underlever, hammers and a doll's head extension on the barrels. I wasn't particular about the chambering, but it worked out perfectly because I just happened to have two boxes of Bertram brass in 577/500 No 2 that I had grabbed for $20 each when Huntingtons was having a clearance of stale inventory. I guess that is the gun nerd equivalent of a girl buying a new pair of shoes because they are on sale.













Here is a very similar one on Cabela's Gun Room site:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...requestid=50558

Here is another on Vintage Doubles, where I got mine:

http://www.vintagedoubles.com/inventory.php?sort=5&process=fullview&gunID=1077


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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: Ulfhere]
      #134968 - 10/05/09 06:33 AM

thanks mate

thats a really nice gun.

best

peter


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: peter]
      #134979 - 10/05/09 12:58 PM

Looks like a great rifle.
Run it hard, put it away wet -- treat it like you love it!

That's the double rifle you can dive down a rocky 1400ft hole in the timbers with and not have to think about.

Good for you!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: tinker]
      #330129 - 15/07/19 07:57 AM

Going thru old posts & found this...I wonder if Ulfhere got his load(s) eventually sorted?

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: T. Bland .577/.500 No 2 Double [Re: 93x64mm]
      #330145 - 16/07/19 12:46 AM

I contributed to the original post years ago and still enjoy my old Manton loaded as I described. To be honest I hope he dropped that 570 gr bullet idea. I'm afraid if he continued down that track by the time he got a load to regulate the rifle would be ruined. When Ross wrote about that 570 gr load I believe he was referring to a single shot specially built for that load. The original poster was but another example of someone wanting to teach an old dog to do new tricks rather than being happy just to hear it bark as it was intended. I hope he learned from that series of replies.

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