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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
"Hard" bullets on cats?
      #133259 - 23/04/09 07:14 PM

While we are on the subject of hunting cats, notably leopards, and stopping charges from such, what is your feeling on using bullets that might be considered "hard"/ slow opening on cats? These typically includes Barnes X/ TSX, Swift A-Frame, Rhino/ Trophy Bonded Bearclaw.

I class bullets like Woodleigh (SP & PP), the various other bonded (& plastic tipped or not) bullets, and Nosler Partition in a sort of medium class, with the really soft ones the bullets without any re-enforcing features.

What will you use, given a choice, as a first shot on a leopard/ lion (taking into consideration that you might also hunt something else with the same rifle), and why?

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 738
Loc: Slovenia
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133261 - 23/04/09 08:14 PM

Karl I have none experience on cats whatsoever - however been around when dealt with bears and thats where I would start my presumptions - it would be based on velocity - faster (above 2600fps) calibers would be served best with hardest (TSX, A-fr., TBBC...), 2200-2600 medium class (seen great results from 9.3x62 and 74R with Oryx bullet), below 2200 softest - placed wisely (shoulder bones are tough)? Just a guess!

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133262 - 23/04/09 08:20 PM

For Leopard and Lion with my 9.3mm I would use 258grn RWS H Mantle's and 286GRN Woodleigh round nose soft's.
If I were to use my 7x64 for Leopard, I would use ether 162grn RWS TIG or 174grn RWS H Mantels.
Purely because I have found these bullets and rounds open up and kill well on Leopard weight game, but without creating too much damage.
If I was to use a 300Mag, I would be happy to use 180grn Swift A Frame's or Woodleigh Protected Point Soft's.
Ps,9.3mm, 286grn Woodleigh RNS worked well on my Lion.

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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: ozhunter]
      #133264 - 23/04/09 08:29 PM


Again, with no experience, I've always imagined my first shot at a Leopard to be with a 180 grain Accubond from my .300 Wby, and my first shot at a Lion to be with a 250 grain Nosler Partition out of my .340 Wby. Where the laws demand a different choice, I'd go with a 300 grain Partition out of the .375 H&H, or a 400 grain A-Frame from the .416.

--------------------

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #133267 - 23/04/09 08:50 PM

Bullet choice is always bound to cause a heated debate whether round a campfire or on a forum....... however, my personal opinion is:

I'm a great fan of fast opening bullets at moderate velocities on cats and my first choice is a HANDLOADED Winchester Silvertip (calibre doesn't matter much but the factory loaded version is (IMO) far too fast) and second choice is a Woodleigh SP (NOT PSP). Third choice would be an A frame which seems to me to be one of those rare bullets that do most things reasonably well.

The bullets I'd least like to use are the TBBC and Rhino as I've bad experiences with both in the past and maybe that's coloured my opinion, but I personally reckon both are only good for fishing weights....... that said, a lot of people love 'em.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26847
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: shakari]
      #133341 - 24/04/09 11:35 AM

Leopard - perhaps a 9.3x62 or 9.3x57 loaded with PriviPartisans - very soft and needn't be driven at high velocity to do some incredible expanding.

I'm going out on a limb with Lion - much heavier and heavier muscled but still not far into the vitals - cat's ar tough - shot too many domestics to think otherwise - I'd pack a 300gr.RN Hornady, or 300gr. Interbond from either my .375/06IMP or .375H&H. I'm sure a normal 286gr. Norma Vulcan from a 9.3x62 would work well for both as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: DarylS]
      #133343 - 24/04/09 12:47 PM

In my experience, 375 TBBC's are soft bullets that hold together. They expand on game as small as impala, but don't expand too much on eland, kudu, etc,...

I would have second thoughts on them in 375 for buff, seem a bit too soft. But I'd use 'em if that was what I had.

Ph prefered them in 375 for cats, fwiw.

JPK

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: JPK]
      #133389 - 24/04/09 11:14 PM

Karl,

I'll be interested to hear your preferences?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: shakari]
      #133397 - 25/04/09 01:06 AM

Quote:

Karl,

I'll be interested to hear your preferences?





I think a lot of nit-picking goes on regarding the best for leopard. I have had clients shoot cats with anything from standard grade bullets, through Barnes X bullets to solids, and I have done the same myself. Obviously, in a charge, a solid is not the best option, as even with a well placed shot (through heart, but no major bones / spine is hit), they might live long enough to come and put a few scratches on your hide.

Most of my clients shoot Barnes- X or Swift A-Frame bullets, because that is what I reccommend. They open up plenty of fast enough to ensure quick kills. Most exit, which I also really like. I normally carry my .450 Rigby with either 500gr Barnes TSX or Swift A-Frames on a leopard follow up/ dog hunt, not neccicarely because of the caliber, but because I know the rifle well, it has a express type sight, and with that caliber I can (and have) even use solids, as they do not need to open up to make a serious hole...!

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26847
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133400 - 25/04/09 01:34 AM

TKS Karl- experience is always the best guide.
I seriously like and approve of the new TSX myself, the old X and XLC's for big game over here. They've given me excellent results. I can't afford Swift's and since Noslers cost more here than TSX, the Barnes get the nod. I know Noslers are good bullets, just don't like Nosler, the company. I do like Hornady and Speer bullets & use them when they suit the purpose.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: DarylS]
      #133402 - 25/04/09 01:45 AM

I don't know but would guess that most Aussies tend to use Woodleigh's........... is that correct?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: shakari]
      #133406 - 25/04/09 02:27 AM

No experience on cats, but on our small black bear, running 100 to 250 lbs or so, I do not believe any of the "hard" bullets would be bad choices when the critters are shot at close range where near muzzle velocity rules and expansion is guaranteed. Comparing weights, I think most leopard would fall in the weight range of our bear so I think some of what I'm saying here might translate. {???}

Thus, on leopard, I would think the same thing. Let's say a long shot at a leopard is 75 meters {I think that is correct??}, the striking velocity of any cartridge pushing an "X"-type bullet at, say, a minimum of 2300 fps at the muzzle would provide sufficient and reliable energy to open the bullet.

I would add one caveat; The "hard" bullets would, IMO, be less than optimum under one condition I have read some leopards are hunted; with hounds. I do have experience hunting bear with hounds and super penetration is for us undesireable when dogs bay up a bear and shots are at bayonet range. o

In truth, almost any caliber will go through one of our smallish bear at close range so the argument is somewhat esoteric. Having said that, fast opening, large bullets are prefered by houndsmen here for such hunting. The .444 Marlin with 240 grain bullets is King and the .45-70 with 300's is Crown Prince. Both of those are absolutely deadly on our small bear at 25 feet and I suspect would be the "Off" Light-Switch on leopard, too. And yes, sometimes those bullets stay inside a bear even when the muzzle blast burns hair.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26847
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: "Hard" bullets on cats? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #133408 - 25/04/09 02:44 AM

Rod - since you mentioned bayonettes - here is it - perfect for cats at close range.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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