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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133202 - 23/04/09 04:53 AM

Found it.......... took the cat about 3 or 4am if I remember correctly and the top pic was taken about 15 or 20 minutes later or so. Look carefully and you can see the stretching has already started and the second pic was taken a few hours later after I've just showered. Note how it's gone back to a more normal shape. I guess rigor mortice sets in and tightens everything up again.

FWIW, I think I mentioned either here or elsewhere a client who was offered a choice of 2 Leopards. One that was a real monster but would take a few days to get comfortable or a more average size cat that could be taken the next night..... he chose the smaller but more accommodating cat........ This was him........... and I'm pleased to say, he made a purrrfect shot.





--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/04/09 06:42 AM)

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Litespeed
.224 member


Reged: 03/06/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Norway
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133206 - 23/04/09 06:49 AM

It seems like you have the ability to make long treads Karl

I have zero experience with leopards, but some with Karl, and in my (and most of the others in this tread) the clients seems like a big dic...head, and Karl stand out as real professional!

I would probably offer the client another deal... Tell him you will split the cost of buying a real fat and heavy leopard skin from a zoo. His dreams will come trough, and he will not have to spend time hunting, which he seems to have the wrong concept of anyway. If he wants to, Shakari might help him with stretching the skin as well You may however inform him that the shoulders will actually move closer to the head of the leopard in the process. You will notice that if you look closely at the pictures (sorry, could not help my self... not very serious remark)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Litespeed]
      #133207 - 23/04/09 06:55 AM



Are we seeing a bit of professional digging going on
that probably should stay out of this thread ?

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133208 - 23/04/09 07:04 AM

Quote:



Are we seeing a bit of professional digging going on
that probably should stay out of this thread ?



Certainly not from me mate, and I'm sure not from Karl either. Frankly, I'm pretty damn sure neither of us need to behave in that fashion. I know I don't and Id bet he doesn't either.

I was using my own pics as an example to show how I believe cats stretch and therefore length and indeed weight mean absolutely nothing........ I could equally have used pics of other PHs etc, but as I don't have permission to use pics from other PHs, I thought it more professional to use my own.

As I've said, I don't doubt Karl's abilities or professionalism at all.........as far as I'm concerned, he knows our business very well indeed and I'd be happy to drink a beer or three with him anytime we happened to be in the same place at the same time.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/04/09 07:09 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133210 - 23/04/09 07:28 AM

Shakari,

It was just an OBSERVATION and comment from my part, and probably more directed at Karl's and one other post than yours.

I just didn't want to see a really good thread with some good views and comments on the client - independant of the Safari operator - turn into a pissing contest.


Hey, I may be totally wrong about it and if so, I apologise.


Anyway, Shakari, great photos, thanks for posting.

Edited by 500Nitro (23/04/09 07:29 AM)

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133211 - 23/04/09 07:36 AM

Quote:



Are we seeing a bit of professional digging going on
that probably should stay out of this thread ?



Professional digging? No.
Some leg (or is it leopard) pulling? Yes!

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40855
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133227 - 23/04/09 01:00 PM

Quote:

It was just an OBSERVATION and comment from my part, and probably more directed at Karl's and one other post than yours.



???

Karl is more than welcome here and I know him personally, have hunted with him and one of the few PHs I would re-book with as a preference. A reputable and professional guy.

I like this thread. No laying of BS on the client by the PH, just the facts, other posters may have made comments, but given the circumstances that's fair enough. I think the client got a great deal on his leopard.

As for the subject matter of the leopard, its being female and the size etc, has been educational for me. I think it has been an informative thread.

I know I would like to hunt leopard one day myself, irrespective of the Australian gov't BS and difficulty in importing them, but I dislike the idea of sitting in a hide for 2 weeks. I would fall asleep and I snore - loudly! So hunting them with hounds sounds like a great idea to me.

Even given my previous comments, I would jump at the chance of a cattle killing pussycat like the one in the picture.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: NitroX]
      #133242 - 23/04/09 03:33 PM

Karl,

You just made me spit coffee all over the keyboard with the Leopard pulling comment!

John or other Aussies,

Can someone tell me the thinking (or lack thereof) behind the Aussie ban on spotted cats and Elephant products?

I thought they were signatories to CITES but then they seem to make their own addiitional rules anyway.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/04/09 04:48 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133244 - 23/04/09 04:23 PM


I may have missed the humour in Karl's post, I apologise if that is the case.



Shakari,

They make up rules as we have a bunch of bloody left leaning fucking greenies who haven't a clue.

That's Australia for you.

Just my HO.

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133245 - 23/04/09 04:50 PM

Bloody political correctness raises its ugly head everywhere.

Are other species such as rhino also banned?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133248 - 23/04/09 05:57 PM

Nice Leopard, Steve, wish I could get one.

The Aussie prissiness about animals grew, I think, out of the disenfranchised city-crim beginnings of our earliest settlers (the convicts). They'd had no right to hunt and didn't fancy getting their necks stretched for doing it, so only bothered to leave town to see horse races. Then, when free settlers released rabbits and foxes for sport, those who did want to hunt spent most time chasing exotics, which soon became pests. This continued until Peter Singer and Laurie Levy came along. Australia was a place with a distinct fauna, and greenies soon hit on the idea that anything native should be sacrosanct but that hunters could chase introduced species if they really had to.

Because the game species on most other continents are native to their lands, urbanised Australians now shrink in horror from the idea that anyone hunts them. So, whenever there is a whiff of endangerment such as a CITES reference, Australia can be expected in the vanguard of import bans.

That's my take on it anyway

- Paul

Edited by Paul (23/04/09 07:41 PM)

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Paul]
      #133251 - 23/04/09 06:06 PM

shakai and others with some leopard/ cat hunting experience- (maybe this should be a seperate post?):

Have you noticed that if you skin a cat (lion/ leopard/ cheetah anyway), it seems that the perifiral damage/ bloodshot meat is less than expected on an animal of the same weight class that was shot at the same distance with a high velocity cartridge.

As an example, take a leopard for instance, it weiges roughly the same as an impala. If you shoot both with a .338 Win Mag and 225gr bullets from say 50 yards, the impala will have huge amounts of bloodshot meat/ spongy feeling underneath the skin, the leopard will have very little.
Why is that? Or am I seeing things?

(I am digging for such a photo, I know I have one of a lion shot with a .300 Win Mag and a leopad shot with a .30-06, but VERY close range.)

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133260 - 23/04/09 07:35 PM

Paul,

Thanks for the gen......... I'm only suprised the Brits haven't done the same thing. The political correctness there is horrifing nowadays.

Karl,

I'd never given it much thought, but now you mention it, I'd say you're probably right. Not always even with particularly high velocity either. I remember shooting (with my 500) a charging Leopard and a week or two later a charging Lion (both previously wounded) and both bullets went in the face and out the arse and when I think back to seeing the carcasses in the skinning shed later, I vaguely seem to remember that neither had as much tissue damage as a similar shot on an antelope would be expected to have. Whether that's my imagination playing tricks with me, I don't know.

Unfortunately, I didn't photograph either carcass..... you raise a very interesting point though and I wonder if we have any doctors/vets etc that could shed any light on this?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (24/04/09 02:30 AM)

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133323 - 24/04/09 07:57 AM

Quote:

Paul,

Thanks for the gen......... I'm only suprised the Brits haven't done the same thing. The political correctness there is horrifing nowadays.






Hey Steve your an Ex-pat, you should know if its got anything to do with a pussy, dead or otherwise, our politicians ain't going to ban it in case they can get a piece.

Regards

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Bramble]
      #133366 - 24/04/09 06:16 PM

Mate,

I thought most of 'em were more interested in blokes!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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cooch
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133458 - 25/04/09 01:57 PM

Somebody mentioned Paddock Pizza.
The pic below is also a fine demonstration of Trophy Stretch. I think this one would be a cert for Rowland ward if they had a category for Wild Rabbit.


Rifle is a Sako A111 in .300WM. A touch worn, but sufficiently accurate.

On the subject of leopards and measurement.
I recall reading that the "ethical" way to measure a leopard was between the pegs, but that those who wished to exaggerate, measured "over the curves". Cats normally having curved spines, the latter measurement being greater.

I can only speculate that as the animal relaxes after death, any tension - including that of gravity as it is held in an unnatural position - would incline the spine the straighten aned hence measure longer. Rigour Mortis, if permitted to take place while the spine was in its natural curvature, would serve to limit this elongation by maintaining the curve.

Cheers........ Peter

(Who has shot no cat larger than the domestic variety)

Edited by cooch (25/04/09 02:15 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: cooch]
      #133463 - 25/04/09 02:19 PM


That is a superb example of Paddock Pizza.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133485 - 25/04/09 06:15 PM

Now that's what I call trophy stretch!!!!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Shackleton
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Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: MKresinske]
      #140669 - 16/08/09 06:05 AM

Quote:

Once I pull the trigger it has become a trophy (To me). I think it is pretty simple. PH put client in front of a legal Leopard. Client shot Leopard. Let the celebration begin. If he was diappointed in the Leopard, he should have been disappointed in himself ! Not only did he get a beautiful Leopard, but also did a local farmer a service. Where do I sign up. Sounds like a wonderful time to me !


I agree. Regardless of the animal species, sex and size, if it's an honest hunt and I have to work for the shot, the animal is a trophy. Then again, with the animals I hunt the real trophy is on the dinner plate. I do have some mounts but have never done dabgerous game or anything bigger than deer.
That said, the principle is the same. My dream hunt is a guided camping hunt for elk. If the guide gives a good effort and I have a good hunt that's more important than if I get a truly big bull. I'd rather have a little spike that I had to work for than a 900+ pound 6X6 bull that I stumbled on the first day.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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tophet1
.400 member


Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Shackleton]
      #140682 - 16/08/09 04:51 PM

This post has been re-opened after two months and having just come from some great Leopard country, I feel able to make a contribution.

Certain hunters/shooters seem to place more importance on what is a trophy by measuring 'inches' or 'weight'. As stated here by more than one poster, there are others who value the experience or the sense of having hunted correctly according to their own ethics that creates the value of the 'trophy'.

Your client appears to have placed a high value on the measurements of the dead animal. (I do not know what agreement you had with this fellow before he pulled the trigger).

Having married into a rural family and living in a remote area of Australia, the eradication of stock/crop raiding or other pest animals rates highly as motivation to 'break out the guns'. The importance of killing such an animal is only exceeded by the importance of killing an animal for food.

While this won't help your client feel better, to me it certainly is a trophy. He certainly got his money's worth hunting two cats.

Good has been done and I would go home proud to have helped eliminate the offending cat.

Edited: after re-reading first post.

Edited by tophet1 (16/08/09 06:32 PM)

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