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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #142386 - 20/09/09 12:05 PM

Buchsenman, love to see those pages. How can we do this? Kevin.

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #142794 - 28/09/09 01:42 AM

Just PM me and I'll attach them in a response.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #142856 - 29/09/09 09:26 AM

PM sent....

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #142915 - 30/09/09 08:06 AM

heers68,

I replied to your PM, did you get it? I'm not sure how to attach the PDFs to a PM so you might have to PM me again with an e-mail address that I can send them to and yes, I'm new at this stuff.

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #165292 - 31/07/10 06:35 AM



ATTENTION KUDUAE!!! Bringing this one of mine back up becouse I have been very impressed indeed with Kuduae's knowledge of the early German proof marks and guns from this period in general! Still wondering the year of production of this BBF and any idea's on maker or makers involved in building this gun?? ANY info appreciated and please feel free to ask for more info or pictures from me! THANKS! Kevin.

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #166645 - 23/08/10 06:17 AM

BTTT...Kuduae??

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #166651 - 23/08/10 07:20 AM

Sorry, heers68, but I have nothing to add, except, perhaps, your Wilke gun was certainly made and proofed in Suhl, not Zella - Mehlis, as the word NITRO is in block letters, not script. So it may have been made up by anyone in Suhl. Raimey ellenbr already told you about the possibilities. The problem is: No German gunmaker ever said: "Sorry, we don't offer such a thing." If a customer asked for a special gun, he would say:"Of course we will build that gun for you." Then he would farm out work and buy in parts or even the complete gun, even from his competitor next door, and sign it as his own product. Well the EK stamp looks like a barrelmaker, so it may be one of the Kelber dynasty.
It is impossible to pinpoint a model or maker from such details as a horn trigger guard or caartridge magzine in the buttstock, as these were essentially special order additions that could be added or left off at the whim of the customer.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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heers68
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Reged: 11/04/08
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Loc: north carolina
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: kuduae]
      #166652 - 23/08/10 07:38 AM

THANKS for your input Kuduae. Do you think 1920's or 30's? I really love the gun though and admire the early German guns very much! Kevin Reddinger.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #166665 - 23/08/10 12:55 PM

Kevin:
It was made in Suhl between 1912 & 1923. Until yet have we been able to make a somewhat accurate guesstatement or stab and the "K" in the rhombus or rotated square. Like Mark posted, Mr. Dietrich Apel has seen the stamp before and possibly has the answer penned away somewhere. But I think we can narrow the tubeset knitter to being of the Kelber klan or the Klett klan. I think Erich Kelber to be the son of Wilhelm Kelber but I don't think he was active when your example was made. Emil Klett looks to have been active just after WWI and he stems from a long and wide family of gunmakers. He'd be my guess, but that's all it is a guess. To whom the "EK" belongs is yet to be defined, but who ever he was he put a large effort in tube knitting as his initials are found on many examples. Your longarm somewhat resembles a Merkel but not fully. They usually subed their tube work to the boys Kelber. Any other worn marks near the forend lug or on the frame may help narrow the field. Wilcke pretty much was a firearms merchant but also had to be a master gunsmith or employ a mastergun smith. The smart gunsmith who became businessmen migrated to being a firearms merchant because that was where the money was. The other master craftsmen continued in their craft and while being experts in their field became subcontractors to the trade. Wilcke may have been a wholesaler who sourced the components and then subcontracted the work. Who knows, but we are continually digging for answers in a pool that is somewhat dingy and has a lot of sand in it that keeps pouring back upon you. The main thing to remember is that there were families of craftsmen who performed specific tasks and for generations they appear to do the same thing. Gunmaking families intermarried developing sourcing lines in addition to, or along the same lines, as economic sourcing lines. Your puzzle is somewhat simple compared to some of the examples that have surfaced.

My definition of early would be from the 1870s. But of course almost all would be hammerguns. Now there's an addiction that's difficult to overcome.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #166674 - 23/08/10 03:33 PM

Quote:

Kevin:
Until yet have we been able to make a somewhat accurate guesstatement or stab and the "K" in the rhombus or rotated square. Like Mark posted, Mr. Dietrich Apel has seen the stamp before and possibly has the answer penned away somewhere.



The rhomb is a actually a square G and it stands for Gebruder Kelbe, if i remember right.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: 450_366]
      #166691 - 23/08/10 09:16 PM

Andreas:
It could be as Rudolf Kelber is the only Kelber missing during this period to my knowledge. But for the Brothers Kelber the rhombus was more of a "G". Also why would both Louis & Wilhelm Kelber both have their own forge type stamps? You will see Louis Kelber's mark of a jagged encircled "K" in pairs while Wilhelm Kelber's mark of a "K" encircled by a "W" is seen a single. Like the Belgians in having a registered trademark steel stamp, like "Krupp Stahl", I believe each German tubemaker may be identified by the trademark/steel recipe and also at the end of something akin to say "Krupp Fluss Stahl" there will be a bullet and then typically there's a letter, sometimes "J", and then another mark.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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gpsb
.275 member


Reged: 17/03/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NJ
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #168327 - 24/09/10 01:03 AM

Beautiful weapon.

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