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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
      #139925 - 02/08/09 09:53 PM

grandveneur

yes, it still is quite a good picture , but lets not go down that road again. you have your ideas about guns and shooting, and i have mine, mine work for me and my clients, yours might work for you.

the picture was the only response that i could think of at the time, as you persisted in telling me that i knew nothing about this cartridge, that statment was a direct insult and i answered it in the same spirit.

let us leave it at that, as i really dont have the time to exchange insults at the moment, and it seems to be overkill on my part to do so with you.

regards

peter

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grandveneur
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: peter]
      #139935 - 03/08/09 12:52 AM

No ill feeling ! Good luck for your new bussiness!

Edited by grandveneur (03/08/09 12:53 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
      #139964 - 03/08/09 05:03 PM

Looking at the old posts and a lot of comments arguing different points, which often didn't match anyway!

Peter was arguing, a 10.75x68 using modern powders could match the OLD .404J ballistics with a 400 gr projectile ie 400 gr at 2150 fps.

Others were arguing a 10.75x68 could not MATCH the .404J ballistics as the case is unquestionably bigger!

Ha ha, BOTH arguments are correct.

Today it might be possible to get 2300 fps from the modern reloaded .404J. I don't have one today so don't know.

As for the 10.75x68 not being suitable for big game today (or being considered "marginal"), if the .404J was suitable a hundred years ago (or whatever) and a sensibly modern reloaded 10.75x68 can do the same ballistics today, I don't see why buffalo, lion, even elephant have gotten tougher today.

Also the increasingly popular .450/400 gives similar ballistics ie 400 gr - 2050 to 2150 fps velocity range, so is this cartridge also marginal on DG? No, otherwise my .375 300 gr at 2300 fps should be bouncing off the beasts.

The main "historical" complaint about the 10.75x68 was the too softly jacketed bullet - 347 gr - in the original "vintage" loadings.

JMO.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: NitroX]
      #139971 - 03/08/09 06:56 PM

John
I agree with all you have said in your latest post on the subject, with differant arguments from differant perspectives with both being more or less right.You are also correct about issues with early bullet softness but you have not added that the other issue with the 10.75x68 was the poorer sectional density than many of the large medium bores of similar calibre e.g. .404, .416 and .425. The factory loaded 347gr bullet was fat and relatively short and even in FMJ apparently did not give reliable straight line penetration.

When comparing the 10.75x68 and the 10.75x73 (.404J) the 400gr bullet is seated and crimped to the correct depth using the full length of the case neck without protruding into the powder space. To use the same 400gr bullet crimped in a 10.75x68, the cartridge overall length would most likely be too long to fit the standard magazine and if the bullet was seated to fit the magazine, the powder space would be compromised and the 400gr bullet could not be crimped.

In saying this I have a number of original 347gr RWS SP bullets which do not have a crimping groove or cannelure so I guess these may have been designed to be held in the case neck with some sort of shellac type lacquer. Have never come across a loaded round with these bullets which are steel jacketed soft points with a flat meplat. A loaded Norma round I have is a round nose with a big deep hollow point. I would think that this one would only be useful on very small light bone plains game. I certainly would not trust it on anything else.

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andrevannibos
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #139978 - 03/08/09 11:29 PM

As a African I thought of adding my few cents to the discussion.

The marginality of any caliber on big game lies with the nut behind the rifle. Following up on poached game in the Low-veld of South Africa, it is astonishing to note how many rhino, elephant and buffalo succumb to a single shot with something as humble as a 303BR or even 7.62x39!

I do accept that it would be foolish to try imitating these facts just for the hell of it, and if you do you're a better man than I am, but it can be done, and has been done many countless thousands of times over. Now for the great question: is a 347gr bullet out of a 10.75x68 not better equipped to reliably kill an elephant than a 286gr bullet of the same construction out of a 9.3x62? Please remember that the 9.3x62 was near the top of the big game calibres before the .375H&H came to be. Can you rely on a 585Njati to stop what is trying its best to bite or scratch you when the chips are down, or are you better off with a light rifle that you can wield in a sure and confidant manner to save your hide?

A few thoughts on the matter...
Groetnis

--------------------
Andre

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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: NitroX]
      #139996 - 04/08/09 05:50 AM

Quote:

Today it might be possible to get 2300 fps from the modern reloaded .404J. I don't have one today so don't know.



2300fps in the 404 is easily doable. I get 2335fps from 84gn ADI 2209 (H4350) under a 400gn Woodleigh with great accuracy. I dont consider this load anywhere near the upper end but more than enough. Only just above the RWS load that I comparison shot along with some Kynoch.

I believe the intent of the origional post was that with modern powders and bullets the 10.75x68 was able to be safely loaded to the initial 404 Jeffery loads, ie 400gn bullet at 2125fps and loaded as such would be suitable for the same game as the 404 was always suited to. While this is undoubtably true, it certainly could not be loaded to achieve what the 404J can now be safely loaded to.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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eagle27
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: VonGruff]
      #140009 - 04/08/09 05:00 PM

Andre

The reason some of the smaller cartridges in the past performed very well on African game and would so again today if they were permitted or chosen for use, was the heavier bullets in these cartridges possessed very good sectional densities i.e. long for calibre bullets. This gave them good straight line penetration with FMJ or soft nose bullets. With long heavy soft nose bullets, good expansion will result leaving enough shank at the rear to prevent breakup or tumbling and achieving that straight line penetration to get into the vitals of big game animals.

This is the quality which made the 9.3, 375, 400, 404, 416, 425 so famous for their reliability in doing the job. Obviously as you so rightly point out, the nut behind the butt has to do his or her part but if this is done, there was generally no question that these calibres would do the job asked of them. Even the long stable bullets of the little 6.5 and 7mm and 318 achieved fame in the hands of certain hunters through marksmanship and well constructed bullets with good SD.

Somewhat differant hunting today where there is a PH and usually one or two others carrying large calibre rifles to back up any poor shots or poor performing bullets.

For me, and I suspect many others on the forum, I prefer to take responsibility for my own hunting and shooting and would be dismayed to have a PH or anyone else have to assist me to down an animal.
Hence I would be using my 404, loaded as it should be, sighted where it should be and hit the animal where it should be hit.

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eagle27
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #140013 - 04/08/09 07:13 PM

Just posted a little bit of info on andre's other post "reloading 10.75x68". His questions caused me to pull a hollow nosed bullet from a Norma 10.75x68 case only to discover it was an unfired berdan primed case with a 280gr RWS bullet (no powder). Interested if anyone has come across these early Norma cases and RWS bullets before. The bullet is copper coloured steel jacketed with a 3/16" hollow point and the case has a N 10.75x68 NORM headstamp?

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andrevannibos
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Reged: 22/11/07
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: eagle27]
      #140016 - 04/08/09 07:36 PM

Eagle 27
You have it right. Your PH should not have have to fire his rifle in any situation; provided that the client does his/her job. Calibre choice will always be a tough one! That's what brings us back to the forum!
Let your 404 soldier on!
Bosgroete

--------------------
Andre

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simonsaorsa
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Reged: 11/05/06
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Loc: UK
Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: grandveneur]
      #140030 - 05/08/09 01:49 AM

Hatari Times no 11 features Wolf's own 10.75 x68 but also carries an article by Barry Jones of Australia ("Cartridges for Dangerous Game") in which he talks of loading 400 grain Woodleigh bullets to 2300 fps but he does not give any powder load information. However, he claims penetration is far superior to factory 458 loads.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: 10,75x68 Mauser [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #140065 - 05/08/09 04:46 PM

Wolf's loads for his 10.75x68 seem reasonable with his 400gr SP at 2100fps which about duplicates the old .404 load. I find it very hard to believe that 2300fps with a 400gr would be attainable in this rather small case. It would certainly be pushing the pressure boundaries and I would not like to use such loadings in early firearms chambered in 10.75x68.

Another point that has not been mentioned, although is recognized in other posts on case life, is the issue of the very slight shoulder that the 68 case has. As in the other posts and in particularly in reference to the 375H&H, shallow case shoulders tend to allow brass flow leading to very short case life. I imagine with the scarcity and cost of cases lower pressure loads would be the order of the day in the 10.75x68.

On the earlier query in this post about the velocities Von Gruff achieved from some old Kynoch rounds in his .404, I checked back in some notes and I see I did pull a Kynoch .404 round some years ago to see what and how much powder was loaded. This was a round from original sealed packets of five of the nitrocellulose “increased velocity” load with an advertised velocity of 2225fps. The cartridges are Berdan primed with purple sealer around the primer pockets.
The powder charge weighed in at 75.0 grains and most likely Nobels No 1. These cartridges chronograph at just on 2200 fps in my .404.

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