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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1409
Loc: Alaska
Exporting a firearm from South Africa
      #131808 - 08/04/09 09:42 PM

Has anyone exported a firearm from South Africa? I have found one that I want to buy but they want $600 to export it to me and I'm a licensed importer/ffl holder. Any help appreciated.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2434
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: casper50]
      #131813 - 08/04/09 11:25 PM

My post on British Militaria from my Importation adventures just last year. http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/7521

When I was in South Africa I bought guns to bring back with me when I returned to the U.S. I intended to bring the guns back as accompanied baggage. That didn't happen. I thought I would share with you what it did take to get the guns back as it turned out to be the same process as if you bought guns from a Gundealer in SA and had them shipped to home.

I acquired a total of five guns. A Martini Sporter Carbine, Westly Richards 1871 patent, Westley Richards Sherwood and two LeClercq system .410 shotguns. I could not take physical possession of the guns in SA and they were held by a gun dealer for me for over a year. The Gun dealer said he could arrange for the all the paper work for the export. Two weeks before I was ready to leave SA the dealer tells me the paper work wouldn't be ready in time for me to take the guns with me. Further he wasn't sure he was doing the right paper work. This guy had 18 months to get this paper work in order and he didn't.

I contacted Classic Arms in Witbank and hired them them to take over the export.

I had to pay R300/$40 to have the guns picked up and couriered to Classic in Witbank from Titan Arms in Durban. I had the guns in two gun cases, a Tuffpak and a two gun hard case.

The guns arrive safe an sound in Witbank. Terry at Classic then told me two of them must be registered as they are listed as unknown in the system.

Once the two guns are reregistered then Terry started the export process--she applied for the export permits. Those came through in about three weeks. Terry then packed up all 5 guns in the Tuffpak and arranged for shipment. The second case will be sent Seafright---parcel post.

Classic Arms fees for the export.

Export Application R200/$26.66
Curior to Airfreight R300/$40
Handling fee R250 per gun not originating form Classic Arms-4 guns R1000/ $133.33

Airfreight Fees.

Airfreight Z2600.70/$346.76 for 24 kg
Customs Documentation Z250/$33.33
Guard Force Z1450/$207.14
Guardforce Transfer Z350/$46.66
Border Police Inspection Z450/$64.29
Safe hndling fee Z250/$33.33
Communication Fee Z50/$6.67

Upon arrival in the U.S. I was able to clear the shipment as a free entry unaccompanied baggage. If you buy guns over seas and hve then imported you and you haven't actually traveled over seas you will have brokerage fees to pay.

In order to claim my guns, I had to pay Delta Airlines a $25 processing fee.

Now that I have the guns, I still must pay the Pittman-Robinson Act Excise tax of 11% tax on each gun.

The second gun case is being sent seafreight--parcel post for R500/$66.67. It's a $250 case so worth it.

Bottom line, if the guns are not extremely valuable it's just not worth it.

The Rand Dollar exchange is from last year when the exchange was around R7.5 to $1.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: DoubleD]
      #131814 - 08/04/09 11:35 PM

DD has got it dead right. It ain't cheap........ look on the bright side though. It's a lot cheaper than permanently importing a firearm into RSA.

I was just quoted something in the region of US$6000 - 8000 including all the taxes for importing a double from the UK. Needless to say, I decided not to buy the double!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: shakari]
      #131816 - 08/04/09 11:55 PM

Hmmm, Shakari, that's a bit worrying, I gave my double to my PH last October as a gift/tip. I bought it back here to Spain with the intention of either exporting it to him later this year when he has the paperwork sorted out or taking it back with me this Sept on the new trip and leaving it with him. He is trying to sort the paper work his end, do you think he will struggle ? He certainly can't afford those sort of fees !! thx in advance, Mike

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #131827 - 09/04/09 01:02 AM

Hi Mike,

You won't be able to take it over with you on a temporary import permit and then leave without it, because by doing so, you're breaking the law and althuogh they probably wouldn't pick it up when you left, you'd be in deep doo- doos if you ever came back........ and he'd be in equally deep doo doos by taking it from you under those circumstances.

The only legal way to do it is for him to get the firearm put onto his licence by the CFR as soon as possible (not a quick process) and also for him to get a permanent import licence for the firearm. Then you can either send it by courier or if you bring it with you, either he or a licenced dealer will have to meet you at the airport to take posession of it. In either case, you can expect to pay a shit load of import tax and VAT before bringing it in.

Do I think he'll struggle to get the correct paperwork? No, I don't think he'll struggle.......... I KNOW he'll struggle.

Frankly mate, it'd be much better for you to simply take him to a gun dealer here and give him a budget to work on and then take his pick....... Then all he'd have to do is leave it with the dealer until he gets his paperwork sorted out..... and it's a LOT faster to swap one for one on the licence rather than get an additional firearm on his permit. This country is awash with firearms at give away prices right now because of the silly new firearms act. Just a week or two ago, I was just in time to stop someone handing in a 1926 John Dickson sidelock 12 gauge to the police to be destroyed.

Feel free to let me know if I can help with advice or contacts etc.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1409
Loc: Alaska
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: shakari]
      #131837 - 09/04/09 02:21 AM

Shakari I'm not trying to go over and leave it, someone else. This is a dealer and he says $600 to the east coast is the best that he can do.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2434
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: casper50]
      #131838 - 09/04/09 02:34 AM

I suggest you contact Andrew Soutar at Classic Arms for the process of importing a firearm into SA.

I have a Martini that needs to go to SA. Andrew has told me that arranging the import is simply a matter of arranging the paper work--the proper export document from the originating country and the import documents from SA.

The real problem is shipping. According to Andrew shipping 10 guns is cheaper than shipping one gun.

Andrew advises that once the proper paper work is arranged the easiest way to transport the firearm is as travelers baggage and he can arrange the protocals for that. He will need adequate lead time to make the arrangements.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: DoubleD]
      #131841 - 09/04/09 03:00 AM

Casper, my reply about costs was directed to Mike's comment that was talking about giving his double to his PH in South Africa.

DD

Cost of getting them here is a few hundred dollars but the real cost is the import tax and VAT. Another hassle is getting the firearm onto the permit of the 'end user' as the CFR are very slow to process any paperwork...... and it gets 10 times worse if the calibre isn't on the CFRs computer. A friend of mine has been waiting well over a year because 550 isn't on the CFRs data base.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (09/04/09 03:03 AM)


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2434
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: shakari]
      #131843 - 09/04/09 03:27 AM

Steve, that may be why Andrew gave the impression, no big deal for the Martini just do the paper work...there's a pretty good chance Firearms registry has the 577/450 cartrisge on their books.

I might also comment that Soutars seem to know how to work the system and were able to get things done. They were able to get two unregistered guns registered in three weeks where the other dealer couldn't get a thing done in a year. The other shop that had a reputation for getting things done was Kings in Durban.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: DoubleD]
      #131844 - 09/04/09 03:56 AM

DD

I think there's no doubt they'll have that calibre on the system.

Getting them on the system isn't usually a problem but getting them on the permit can be slow as hell........ all you can do is pester them in a nice way. They're not awkward, just overwhelmed with work because the act itself is just a super mega bugly stuff up..... just one of those things and it's a good idea to be nice to them and ask for help rather than demand it.

Soutars and King's are certianly 2 of what I consider the best 3. The other one being Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit who built my 2 big game rifles.

I'll get some up to date, personal experience of the CFRs effeciency soon as I'm planning to swop my shotgun for another one.......... and FWIW, I'll be happy to post my experiences when it's over. The last time I swapped one for one, it was a fairly painless experience and the staff were as helpful as they could be under the circumstances.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1409
Loc: Alaska
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: shakari]
      #131850 - 09/04/09 04:27 AM

Can someone give me more contact info for Soutars and King's? Nothing comes up on Google.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2434
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: casper50]
      #131893 - 09/04/09 11:19 AM

PM sent

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: DoubleD]
      #131914 - 09/04/09 08:06 PM

Talking about my comment of th country being awash with firearms right now....... I've just been to my local gunshop and amongst some of the firearms that have been handed in as unwanted are (what looks to be) a brand new Browning in 300 WM complete with Tasco scope and rifle bag and a genuine Obenforf Mauser actioned 9.3x64 with rifle case. The action on this one seems nice and tight but the barrel looks like it's seen better days.

The have until the end of june to accept an offer on them or they go for destruction. If I remember correctly, the asking price is ZAR8000 for the Browning and ZAR10000 for the other one........ frankly I reckon they'd take any half reasonable offer on either.

I find it such a shame that firearms should be wasted like that and God alone knows why anyone would hand in a perfectly good scope along with the rifle.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: shakari]
      #131922 - 09/04/09 09:51 PM

Thx for the advice earlier Shakari, I will see how we progress, if it is a cluster f**k
then I will sell it at auction and take the money over there and see what he can get. Are
second hand doubles in .470 available over there ? I guess I can flog my Dumoulin O/U for approx
£5k or so, best, Mike


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Exporting a firearm from South Africa [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #131929 - 09/04/09 11:44 PM

Mike,

I'm not really up to date on prices I'm afraid but as long as the buyer is willing to bide his time, I'd guess he could pick up a good deal on any used firearm.

James Dunlop in Jo'urg usually has some good stuff but tends to deal at the higher end of the market. He'll be away just now because of Easter, but I'll try to call him after the long weekend to get some price samples.

Sabi Rifles are a Kreighoff agent and seem to sell quite a lot but I've no idea about prices.

On the subject of doubles...... my local cop shop has one that's been handed in for destruction but the buggers won't let me take a peep inside to see what it is or even look at the register........ I know it's a double because of the weight of the motor case but that's all I know. Damn but it's frustrating!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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