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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
30-30 limitations?
      #131343 - 03/04/09 10:36 PM

Hello Folks,

Considering that the Marlin 336 lever action rifle has been chambered for such cartridges as the 307 Winchester, I’m wondering why I can’t improve the performance of my 30-30 without re-chambering. The limitations appear to be case volume, and case strength. If volume is fixed, could increasing case strength make an improvement? I have on hand a supply of new 375 Winchester cases, which I can easily reform into 30-30 cases. From an armchair ballisticians point of view, do you believe a significant improvement is possible?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: Tatume]
      #131345 - 03/04/09 11:19 PM

Leaning back in the Golden Armchair and lining up the six-pack of Kokanees just in case I need additional creative license, I'll have a whack...

As long as case neck relief is adequate {might require neck reaming} the case support should be greater. Problem is, the internal volume is less. So from what I've read, improvements are not as great as they might appear to be at first blush.

As an aside, I am not certain that all heat treatment and steel alloys are the same between the .307 guns and the .30-30's.

Maybe a better over-all plan would be to; use .375 cases as you suggest, then reaming chamber to Ackely-improved specs. Then, careful load workup. This might be a very cheap option for a fellow who wants to boost performance.

Of course, that boost is probably NOT going to take the round into .308 Win territory, but might get the round closer to .300 Savage territory.

Also, one intriguing aspect of your thought comes to me in the form of using tricked bullets, i.e. HEAVIER bullets with tricked tips.

Last I checked, the Marlins used a 1/10" twist in all their .30-30's. I think a really neat option would be to get some Hornady 220 grain bullets, add a cannelure if necessary and cut them back to produce a DEAD FLAT point. This would give a "short" bullet that would function thru the magazine {proper OAL} of about 200 grain weight, easily stabilized in the 1/10" and due to the tricking, give superb expansion and deep penetration even at the say, 1850-1900 fps that might be possible {maybe...???...2000 fps? with modern powders?}.

Sort of a "Magnum .303 Savage".

I really like your idea.

Cheap, interesting, a very useable, not to mention, a properly done Ackely-improved job will leave you able to shoot regular .30-30's.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (03/04/09 11:22 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27006
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #131365 - 04/04/09 02:24 AM

IMP .30/30 is always good idea. The brass lasts forever but with normal .30/30 bullets, but expansion could become too great, limiting penetration with lighter .30/30 bullets. Certainly, on deer or black bear, a 170gr. moving 2,400fps will make it a better deer bullet. I would not use 150's in the ImP case.

9.3's idea of shortened 220gr. is a good one and would elevate the .30/30IMP to being a good elk and moose timber round. Shortened to 190 to 200gr. with a nice flat nose, and running 2,200fps to 2,300fps, they'd be much better than the .30/40 Krag.

The Marlin should handle the IMP .30/30 very well but may not make it into a .307, of course - but very close. Watch the headspace and make it perfect and it will amaze you on the chronograph & on game. Scoped with a straight 4X or a 1-5X, they're very accurate and fast, although make the shot right and only one is needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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SharpsNitro
.375 member


Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: Tatume]
      #131369 - 04/04/09 02:53 AM

I would give a thumbs up to the 30-30 AI as well, the extra case volume will give you more punch. It has the added benefit that you can always use factory 30-30 ammo if you get caught short. I have an old High Wall in this caliber that I am restoring from having been varmintized; caliber will be going back to 38-55 as it came from the factory. As a result I have a set of barely used Hornady 30-30 AI dies that I no longer need.

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CJack
.224 member


Reged: 22/06/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Venetie, Alaska
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #131383 - 04/04/09 05:58 AM

I've the AI version of the .30-30 and find it to be a great improvement on something that really does not need it. Shooting Nosler 170 Partitions I am getting abit over 2300fps and case life is 8 reloads easy. I shoot only first fireformed for hunting and anything else for target practice or to get my wife refamiliar with the Win. 94 in early hunting season. I've pondered the .38-55 barrel conversion with one of my 94's but the .30-30ai. works rather well for moose and does kill grizzlies better than most would believe..not a preferred choice but it has taken them down when necessary. One thing about a lever gun it is a fast handling in close package...in the hands of one who is familiar and skilled it plain works. There is alot of harder hitting calibers in my home but do have an affair with the 94's.

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: CJack]
      #131427 - 04/04/09 12:11 PM

The Marlin Sporting Carbine is one of the all-time best handling rifles I've ever handled.

I regret selling mine. It was a transitional model with a M36 barrel {NOT micro-groove} on a 336 frame. I shot a vervet monkey in South Africa with it and it was a dandy.

Wish I still had it.

Would make a great AI with the "Flat 200" on elk.

We've used the .30-30 on bear and butcher stock, too. Works great. It is a great cartridge and the Marlin is the best lever .30-30 ever made in my opinion. I like 'em alot more than the Winchester 94.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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FrankS
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Reged: 06/10/08
Posts: 114
Loc: New Iberia Louisiana
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #131446 - 04/04/09 04:25 PM

I also have tried making thicker 30-30 cases from 375 winchester cases. Just be sure you use the greasy stuff in the little round tin. Stuff works wonders and is way better than the regular lube some of us use when either forming or sizing cases. Dug through my stash of odd ball dies and came up with a 30-30 form and trim die. Set it so the base of the die does not contact the top of the shellholder. Lube the case with the sticky stuff and resize only about half the case. Raise up the press handle and screw in the die about a 1/16 turn then rotate case 180 degrees then finish resizing. Try the case to see if it will fit into your chamber. If not rotate the sizing die about 1/16" and repeat the process. Cases may come out a little short. I used a lee handtrimmer to trim cases to the same length. Take one case and seat a bullet either cast or jacketed and see if you can chamber either. If you can't then you may have to get an inside case reamer. I believe the forster company still sells the neck reamers for use in their version of their case neck trimmer.Try and use a ball mine to get an idea of how thick your brass is at the neck. I used the inside reamer as I already had it on hand. Lube the reamer when reaming. removes metal faster and leaves a cleaner cut surface.Now if using cast bullets just make sure you have enough radial clearance around the case neck to release the bullet without raising pressures. And remember when using the reformed brass it will be thicker and heavier that the origional 30-30 case. Less powder is needed, due to less internal volume. Took awhile to get my fifty cases done. If you luck out and latch on some once fired cases they will reform, but takes a bit much more oomph. New unfired cases were the easiest.I wouldn't waste valuable powder fireforming just the cases. Buy some remington 170 grain round nosed softpoints and use them to fireform. Remember when forming the cases you want to be able to feel the case being pushed into the chamber. It might be felt as some resistance and as long as it chambers all is well and good. It will form to your chamber when the big light is lit. Just don't make your fireforming loads loadbook maximum. About halfway is good enough. Hope this helps. Frank

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: FrankS]
      #131455 - 04/04/09 10:07 PM

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the insights. What velocities were you able to attain with your 30-375 cases?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: Tatume]
      #131456 - 04/04/09 10:10 PM

Hi Sharps,

Quote:

As a result I have a set of barely used Hornady 30-30 AI dies that I no longer need.



How much would you like for the dies?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27006
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: FrankS]
      #131471 - 05/04/09 02:56 AM

Quote:

I also have tried making thicker 30-30 cases from 375 winchester cases. Just be sure you use the greasy stuff in the little round tin. Stuff works wonders and is way better than the regular lube some of us use when either forming or sizing cases...........Lube the case with the sticky stuff and resize only about half the case. Frank



Frank is talking about Imperial Die Wax. It is good, and so is STOS, Ponsness Warren's loading press lube. Very little goes a long way. If too much lube is used, you'll get dents and deformed brass.

Best method of sizing brass, is to neck up .30/30 brass to .358", then back down in a .30/30AckImp(or .30/30) sizer, forming a new shoulder, to where it takes just a bit of pressure to close the lever, not much or it won't fire, then fireform. Necking this way will leave a 'false's shoulder for headspacing and the brass will fireform without stretching at the web. Another, easier method is to use a maximum .30/30 load, ie: factory load and lube the cases on a lube pad, then fire them. The lube will allow the case to slide back and form properly.

If you rely on the rim for headspace, the case will stretch at the web and case life will be shot- ie: 3 to 8 firings. Formed properly, it will last almost indefinitely - if the necks are annealed every 4 to 6 shots.

I always use a near max load for fireforming (as PO Ackley instructed) - the brass forms perfectly with one shot without stretching at the web, if lubed, or the false shoulder is provided. Easy stuff - without complications.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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FrankS
.300 member


Reged: 06/10/08
Posts: 114
Loc: New Iberia Louisiana
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: DarylS]
      #131529 - 05/04/09 05:14 PM

Dayrl is correct I was referring to imperial die sizing wax. Stuff works great and a little goes a long way to eliminate the dreded lube dents. Haven't tried the 375/30-30 cases yet. Looking for a 180 grain cast bullet that will cast fat enough to match the internal dimensions on the barrel of the canadian cennentennial comemorative carbine made in 1966. Savage used to make a 190 grain jacketed round nosed bullet in their 303 savage ammunition. sadly it has gone the way of the dodo. I suppose I could take some 30 caliber 180 grain round nosed bullets and try them first.As far as velocity is concerned you all know you can get a few extra feet per second using cast bullets. So that is where that project stands for now. One amongst many. Frank

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 30-30 limitations? [Re: FrankS]
      #131544 - 05/04/09 09:54 PM

Hornady sizing lube in the plastic tub works great, too.

Also, the neck relief may be somewhat difficult to gauge, as the crush fit that Daryl correctly recommends can mask compression in the neck area. If you can fire a round with an undersize bullet, you can then check to see if the proper bullets slide inside the fired case easily.

You CAN mike the OD of the neck of a loaded round but that measurement will only be useful if you actually know the diameter of the neck area of the chamber. Otherwise, all you will learn is if the OD is within normal spec of the .30-30 and it is possible the chamber neck isn't.

Of course, if you have a sloppy chamber, the .375 cases may be better for overall use than normal .30-30 cases are.

Thld 190 Savage bullets would be a great start. Other 180's would be too or Flat Pointing 220's. Brings up Daryl's suggestion for a cannelure tool again...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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