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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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hansol
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
12 bore black powder charges
      #130636 - 27/03/09 02:26 PM

Hey guys,

I'm currently experimenting with my 12 bore "slug" gun, and am looking at making some black powder loads for it. The projectile I will be firing weights 580 grains.

I've already used 102 grains (3 3/4 drams) Pyrodex RS powder with this slug, and would like to load something a little hotter. That being said, I don't know what my limit is regarding volume-pressure ratings, so figured somebody here might have some info on this. Basically this is a fancy way of saying what is my max load of black powder for a 580 grain projectile?

My slug gun is a 12 gauge Lanber Supreme SxS shotgun with 3" magnum chambers, meant to handle modern smokeless loads. It will manage 11500psi, in accordance with typical SAAMI specs. (I don't know how much of this is relevent, but figured I'd better leave more info than less.)

Thanks very much guys.

Edited by hansol (27/03/09 02:32 PM)

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: hansol]
      #130686 - 28/03/09 08:03 AM

Send a pm to Daryl.........

Regards

Ben

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Kaimiloa
.224 member


Reged: 12/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: empirevr]
      #131330 - 03/04/09 04:10 PM

Hansol,
Maybe ask the Forum Administrator to stick this thread over in the Black Powder Section? I would like to hear what Daryl says myself. And others perhaps.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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hansol
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #131367 - 04/04/09 02:37 AM

Ka'imiloa,

After a bit of browsing, I came across this thread http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=128153&an=0&page=0#Post128153

If you scroll down a bit, you will see a copy of some 12 bore data, along with their pressure figures. And after a lot of reading on some other forums and stuff, I've heard of guys loading up to 150 grains of black powder without any problems. You can even go higher, but recoil is insane I'm told.

Anyway, check that out, as it certainly appeased my curiosity. Cheers.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: hansol]
      #131371 - 04/04/09 03:04 AM

I used 150gr. and 191gr. in my 2 3/4" 12 bore double. Yes- they kick a bit, even broke my stock through the wrist. I repaired it and it's still shooting, 15 years later by and for it's new owner on ducks over decoys and moose with balls while duck hunting - every year so far.

He is using high velocity smokeless loads for duck loads, straight out of the Lyman book, matching ball weight to shot load (1 1/8oz.) - low pressure using 4756 and 7625 powders - loaded as I've been suggesting for all these years. He is using a 14 bore ball, and the gas check off trap wads to hold it in the middle, cup-up, under the ball, then fibre wads (or cuttoff plastic wad) for taking up the excess space. He also uses one-piece cases like, WW but not necessarily WW make. I gave him several bags of old wads from herters and others along with the guns. He uses whatever fits and never has a problem. The powders and wads he's using probably are keeping his 'stats' to about 1,300 to 1,400fps. They sure kill moose. My brother shot a nice cow with a RB from his Brown Bess, 1728 model (.774" bore using a .735"(600gr.) ball, 100gr. 2f, 1,000fps, range 100 yards, pure lead ball. The ball smashed through sholder blade and then ribs on both sides, went straight (which slugs won't do generally on moose) through both lungs, making 4" diameter permanent holes and stopped against the hide on the off side. More velocity is just icing.

BTW - 150gr. is not bad on recoil at all and regulated, just as the heavier one, and with a bit of practise the 7 dram load isn't too bad either. First one took me by surprise and spun me around like a weather-cock - but didn't hurt --- much or for too long. I wouldn't call that insane, however I'd recommend a heavier gun than 7 1/2 pounds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: DarylS]
      #131376 - 04/04/09 04:00 AM

Yea, I find 2F Black Powder to be much more of a push than a sharp whack like most smokeless are. I have found that loading to the so called equivalent with real black powder in 2F is not bad at all in the recoil arena. I think 150 grains of 2F under a 570 Grain Round Ball is deadly medicine, yet offers surprisingly manageable recoil.

Now 3F would whack a bit sharper for sure.

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Kaimiloa
.224 member


Reged: 12/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: hansol]
      #131716 - 07/04/09 05:52 PM

Hansol, thought I'd just put in a little reminder here, for those who get to reading threads without going back to their beginning and starting from there on the subject. We're talking modern, ordnance-steel barrels here, which can handle a lot more pressure than an 1840s or 1860s ML SG or even early hammer gun. Hope everyone here is careful of what they are loading for.

Daryl, you are a brave man with a shoulder of iron, to shoot those heavy loads in a 7 1/2 pound gun!

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #131732 - 08/04/09 02:29 AM

Quote:

Hansol, thought I'd just put in a little reminder here, for those who get to reading threads without going back to their beginning and starting from there on the subject. We're talking modern, ordnance-steel barrels here, which can handle a lot more pressure than an 1840s or 1860s ML SG or even early hammer gun. Hope everyone here is careful of what they are loading for.

Daryl, you are a brave man with a shoulder of iron, to shoot those heavy loads in a 7 1/2 pound gun!

Aloha, Ka'imiloa



I sold it! Too much 'good stuff' for me. Did I mention the torn cartilage in my shoulder joint, fornt and back. Torn in front from recoil of various rifles (15,000 rounds of .458 helped some) and torn in back from yanking my dislocated shoulder back into joint by myself - I've cooled my heals on heavy recoil now & wear a shoulder pad so 30 rounds of .375 from the bench is about all I can handle now in one sitting & that from a 9 1/2 pound rifle.

I'd keep antiques with excellent condition bores & actions down to 4 1/2 drams of so dependent on condition. That level of loading will handle any North American game. It depends a lot on conditon and regulation - A friend has a 3" chambered very heavy 12 1880's in excellent conditon that is designed & built for heavier loads yet. What gets used depends heavily on regualation and of course conditon. Also, pressures developed are very low in large bores - but still 'shake the stock and locks' while trying to pull the barrels off face. There is a good blow indeed when the hammer falls.
I think antique guns under about 8 1/2 pounds were meant for quite light loads, certainly no more than 4 1/2 drams.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kaimiloa
.224 member


Reged: 12/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: DarylS]
      #132124 - 12/04/09 07:45 PM

Daryl,
In checking up on loads for a friend's 14 ga. 1840s ML double rifle I had assumed at least 3 1/2- 4 drams (96-110 gr.) would be in order. I was informed such guns often used quite light loads. I had a hard time believing this until I came across the Rigby load for a very similar rifle. Guess what? 2 drams (55 gr.). I was amazed!

I'm sorry to hear about your shoulder, and yet surprised you can still shoot the .375 that much - especially on the bench. Shoulder pads are sure a blessing, eh.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: hansol]
      #132125 - 12/04/09 08:26 PM

Why not black powder! I dont reload shotgun cartridge's, but i have a lot of old ammunition 12 and 16 Bore from my father and great father's in very good shape but oftens i dont know what powder is inside! I use this ammunition for practice and sometimes that's a blackpowder cartridge, a lot of smoke but not a problem!

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27014
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore black powder charges [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #132138 - 13/04/09 01:08 AM

Kaimiloa,

You are right- many of the British guns of that period have very rapid twists, not only in 14 but larger bores as well. This is quite well documented in Forsyth's book.

The trend at that time was to ever faster rifling twists and less powder. He had one such 13 bore that stripped if more than 1 1/2 drams was used, but with 1 1/2 drams, was very accurate - however the ball lacked anything that could be considered power and was useless for killing game - it was a wonder and had a trajectory of 13" for 100yards. If you knew the range exactly, you could hit, but not kill. Guns of that type were often overloaded, and 'hang the stripping', they were used close in as a smoothbore was - killing by the sure force of the ball, but shoot as in imperfect smoothbore might.

Anything of 16 or 14, that shoots 3 drams of 3F powder well, will kill most game in N.A. - BUT - the trajectory will be quite high - if more powder CAN be used, it is of advantage to lower the trajectory and increase the blow of the ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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