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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga
      #130519 - 26/03/09 12:04 PM

Last Friday was a great day to go to the range. Sunny and mild. Perfect time of year in this part of Texas. My shooting buddy and I took out the Husky M17B Combo SXS in 12.7X44R and 16ga. This is a nice light and handy gun to carry. I have been wanting to try out some of the round ball loads in the 16 smooth bore. I have loaded up a couple of varieties, but only shot a couple of them. First I shot some of the recent loadings. This is a cast .610 ball. I picked .61 because it was available, and would work in all of the 16 ga choke barrels I have. (two combos and a drilling). I wanted swaged ones, but can't find them. I loaded these with a volume of 777 powder equal to 2 3/4 drams of FF black. I used plastic 16ga shells trimmed to 2 1/2 inch. The load column is powder, nitro card, 1/2 inch fiber wad, felt wad ball and then a over shot card set by a roll crimp from a 19th century roll crimping tool.
I shot alternate ball and the rifle to see if the ball would come close to the rifle. I knew the rifle shoot to a couple inches over the sights at 50 meters. Well I didn't actually acheive groups. More patterns. The ball went into about minute of Boar size groups, and mostly to the left. Well, maybe a BIG BOAR. I need to work on this a bit. Here are a few photos of the shooting day.














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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8794
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #130637 - 27/03/09 03:23 PM

seems to be 50 yards or+ and thats the end for a common roundball , maybe the over ball card is a problem. it can deflect the ball!
I would try a patch around the ball and crimp without a card on top. its no problem to use parafin if the ball isnt fixed enough with the crimp.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8794
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: lancaster]
      #130642 - 27/03/09 05:13 PM

btw, have you ever try to load a 500 s&w into the 12,7x44R? Smith&Wesson may have never think about this and we hope that everyone buying S&S have enough knowledge but I ask myself if an idiot will give it a try some day.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: lancaster]
      #130694 - 28/03/09 11:16 AM

Actually, I have not been that stupid to load a .500 S&W, but I did use .50 A&E dies to begin reloading for this old horse. I looked at the S&W brass as an option, but found Buffalo arms brass and Betrem brass for the loads.
The .500 S&W cast bullets are about right for the bore diameter. It is just over .50.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #130722 - 29/03/09 02:42 AM

12,7x44R rifles can vary from .500 -.512 so its nice to have a bore that like the 500 s&w lead bullets.
the 50 AE and the 500S&W wave brings a lot of good things for the friend of obsolete cartridges.
I did not have the possiblity to load a S&W magnum round into the 12,7x44R but assume that this is possible and dangerous for the not so clever.
your 3 shoot group with the 12,7 is very good, take the roundball for a second shoot at close range and all will be fine. I hear that you also have a wild boar problem in texas, this is a answer

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: lancaster]
      #130932 - 31/03/09 02:48 AM

A message about loading. I used 777 power in cartridge guns.

After the last shooting session, I noticed I had a little trouble opening the gun on one shot. I examined the primers and found they were pushing into the firing pin hole. Scared me. I looked at previous loading and the primers were not deformed like this.
I took the rest of the loaded cases and pullet the bullets and found that I had over compressed, somehow, the power. In some cases it was a solid mass.

The warnings from Hogdens is to NOT compress. I believe I spiked pressure with the compression. I must have miss judged the powder and seating depth.
I am backing away from the 777 until I figure out what happened. I will likely switch to black or 4198 loads.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
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Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #130936 - 31/03/09 03:06 AM

I sporatically play with "black powder" arms and have long ago given up on anny of the substitutes. The all seem dirtier and far less forgiving than good old Black powder. The H4198 for black formula is a route to try but volume will call far a pile of wads.

Why where you using a over ball wad ??? No indictment, just asking. I would think it would be a problem.

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To live life as it is handed to me from God

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: Caprivi]
      #130939 - 31/03/09 03:27 AM

Just to hold the ball in the case.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #130945 - 31/03/09 05:13 AM

Something that looks like this as always tripped my trigger


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...=11&fpart=3

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To live life as it is handed to me from God

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: Caprivi]
      #130954 - 31/03/09 07:52 AM

T7 is noted for spiking pressures with heavy bullets or even balls in muzzleloading rifles. Pyrodex and Black Mag 3 seem to require compression,s o anyone who is familiar with them, automatically compresses T7 - I guess. If Hodgdon says it shouldn't be compressed, I'd heed their instruction on that. Firing the rifle, might just set the wads back and compress the T7 in the other tube? Just a thought.

I'd stick with real BP- it is forgiving and isn't made of potassium percholates, so it's fouling doesn't turn into an acid after moisture is absorbed into it. I have been warned by someone in the industry that this happens and that too, the phoney propellents are more hydroscopic than black powder fouling and normal cold water cleaning won't neutralize the acids produced by the phoneys - apparently. He didn't think Black Mag 3 was made with potassium percholates and because so, might not be as hard on barrels as the other ones that are made with that stuff. Guns that have shot a lot of the phoney powders are recognizable with a bore scope! - word of caution. He went on to state, that any barrel that has shot even a pound of Pyrodex or T7 could be picked out of a bunch of barrels that had been shot and cleaned the same, but with black powder - with the use of a bore scope. That was good enough for me.

Thin disk wads will spin away from and in front of the ball as they do from a shot charge. The do not hurt accuracy. Accuracy is hurt by the ball not being centred in the bore. Some form of a bore fitting cup, like a hollowed wad as used by Alan MacKenzie will work to perfection to improve accuracy. I use WAA12 base wads cut for this purpose - cutting the gas check from spend trap wads and using those, cup-up underneath the ball for centering. BTW - do not introduce any plastic against BP flame - the flame will melt the plastic and smear it all over your bore. Hard card wads are needed to insulate the plastic and they must be somewhat oversize to the bore or flame will blast past them, melting the plastic.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: DarylS]
      #130968 - 31/03/09 11:51 AM

Thanks again Daryl. I couldn't get hold of the same with 16 ga. I will look to ballistics products company and see what I find. I think you have the formula. I just didn't have all the ingredients. I can't find swaged balls in the right size. Buffalo bullets used to make them, but they can't be found by me so far.
Still, this is great stuff and fun shooting.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Caprivi
.375 member


Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #130977 - 31/03/09 04:00 PM

Found this to be a interesting site to nod thru.

http://weiss-trading.com/HVA/HVAE.htm

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26610
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Re: Shooting the HVA M17B 12.7 x 16ga [Re: Caprivi]
      #131033 - 01/04/09 03:31 AM

OxYoke or other woven felt wads can be bought in 16 bore size. Punch a 3/8" holes through the centres. Put down your hard card wad or wads, then 2 felt wads with the holes, then the ball, then thin card, then crimp.

The holes in the felt will keep the ball centred in the middle of the bore. Increasing or decreasing the charge might bring them closer to the rifle's point of impact.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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