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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Oz
.224 member


Reged: 24/05/08
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
Shot and Ball Gun
      #129804 - 17/03/09 09:51 AM

Can anyone tell me what defines a 'Shot and Ball' gun? Are we talking one barrel smooth and one rifled?
Cheers
Oz

--------------------
Once upon a time, long long ago
there was a contented young woman
happy with the choices made by her husband

But it was only the once,
and it was a long long time ago

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Oz]
      #129834 - 17/03/09 12:49 PM

I believe a shot and ball gun is like a Paradox, Colindian, Cosmos, or a well designed smoothbore,etc a gun which upon conception and purpose is designed and built to be used for both fur and feathered game. A good ball and shotgun should not be a compromise, it should perform both functions well. A ballgun is a smooth bore whose intended purpose is four footed game animals and whose specifications have more in common with a rifle (shorter heavier barrels, overall heavier no choke). By virtue of the absence of rifling a ballgun could be fired with shot, just as many shotguns could be fired with a ball but that was not their purpose. Obviously, the intentions of the maker and his client are now blurred in time.


--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (17/03/09 01:12 PM)

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Oz
.224 member


Reged: 24/05/08
Posts: 39
Loc: Australia
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #129847 - 17/03/09 05:10 PM

Along the lines of this;
Calibre 10 Bore
Make Joseph Lang and Sons
Model Shot and Ball Gun
Action Break action
Scope Open sights


(I have an image but I'm not real sure about how to upload)

--------------------
Once upon a time, long long ago
there was a contented young woman
happy with the choices made by her husband

But it was only the once,
and it was a long long time ago

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Oz]
      #129860 - 17/03/09 09:22 PM

I know of a Westley Richards same thing......

Lovely guns!

Ben

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Oz]
      #129865 - 17/03/09 11:15 PM

Earlier American ball and shot guns were built heavier in the breech area to withstand higher pressures. Many of the straight shotguns of that era are marked "Not for Ball", some European shotguns are marked the same way. None of the ball and shot guns I have seen had either barrel rifled.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27003
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #129886 - 18/03/09 03:42 AM

Quote:

Earlier American ball and shot guns were built heavier in the breech area to withstand higher pressures. Many of the straight shotguns of that era are marked "Not for Ball", some European shotguns are marked the same way. None of the ball and shot guns I have seen had either barrel rifled.



Exactly - Engish guns are the same - buddy of mine has 2 - one is .75 and caplock H-Whall while the other is .80 and flintlock - don't remember it's name. They are quite heavy in the breech, much more so than shotguns of those gauges. They are characteristicly about 30" to 32" of barrel as shoter doens't shoot well with shot with older BP's. the .80 has 36" of barrel. Another friend has a 6 bore double, ball and shot gun, about 14 pounds and has a sight lump on the rib, while the first two, have a concave shaped rib at the tang for sighting down the short oct flat.

It was common practise in India to use any double or single shotgun with round ball and heavy charges as a dangerous game gun in the mid 1800's - even the first Lefaucheau pin-fires altough they were of small capacity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bobc
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Reged: 18/05/05
Posts: 31
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #130036 - 20/03/09 01:05 AM

I have a buddy with a ball and shot gun. Smooth bore, with a folding leaf site, designed to shoot round ball or shot. He's taken deer and a limit of dove, so it's a versatile short range gun. I'm looking at a reprint of a 1926 Manton catalog as I write this. Several shotguns are listed as 'suitable for shot and ball.' there is an article in the catalog that describes their own brand of round ball shotshell called the 'Contractile.'

Here's how they describe: "In building this gun special attention is paid to the assembly of the barrels in order to ensure that each barrel shall group properly, and with the assistance of the special sights accurate results are attained up to 75 yards. The gun being a smooth bore is equally suited for use with shot and will be found an effective weapon at ordinary range."

They also have a cheaper cylinder bore shotgun also designated as shot and ball, but without sights.

Bob

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27003
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Shot and Ball Gun [Re: bobc]
      #130044 - 20/03/09 03:05 AM

Interesting, Bob - good stuff. 75 yards is quite easy for a good shot and a properly loaded smoothbore. That's with one sight - with rear sight, that range can be extended by 25 yards IF the gun will hold 7" to 8" at that range. It takes a lot of experimentation sometimes to make that happen.

My source of info on ball and shot guns is what is written in Forsyth's book & concernes hunting in India - deer, tiger, buffalo, bear and elephant.

He mentions that with muzzleloading smoothbores, Manton is perhaps the best at making a dual purpose gun. In the mid 1800's, they were choking, but not at the muzzle. The bore was 2 reversed cones, one starting at the breech becoming tighter in the centre, then reamed out to a larger diameter again at the muzzle. The longer the barrels, the better, as the longer barrels needed less constriction in the middle to shoot strongly with shot. I know it sounds wierd - having a choke in the middle of the bore - they did and it worked - amazingly enough. My bro's 14 bore Manton has no choke - straight all the way through. John Blisset was a popular gun maker as being able to make the "best" true bored smooth barrels and that the true barrel shot better with ball, but weaker with shot - as we know, but - there are tricks to tighten shot loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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