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empirevr
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To mr Zihn and all of you building guns...
      #129024 - 08/03/09 08:12 PM

Do you build Howdah pistols Steve?

Do any of you?

Surely a nice idea......no?

Ben


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szihn
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: empirevr]
      #129046 - 09/03/09 02:12 AM

I have only ever made one that might be called a Howdah Pistol by some, but I am not sure if it would truly qualify. I am not sure how specific that term is.
What I made was a single barreled 8 bore pistol with a 1-25" twist on a reinforced piece of rosewood for a stock. It was a very intimidating looking piece. 8" long barrel.

I bet it would have cleaned a tiger off an elephant quite well, so I called it a "Howdah" but I am unsure if and real Howdah pistols of the 1800s were singles or not.


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DarylS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: szihn]
      #129048 - 09/03/09 02:58 AM

Thought them all to be doubles in 20 bore or larger - or 4 barreled ctg., like the 4 barreled Lancaster .577 Snider pictured and discussed in a Guns And Ammo magazine back in the late .60's or early 70's. No - I don't have the magazine anymore - me thinks.

Brother Tayor has a set of buggered 12 bore shotguns barrels shortened to 12" to obtain integrity that we've discussed in turning into a Howdah - probably smooth, but might line to a smaller bore - maybe .58 - probably not.

A single 8 bore would certainly 'work' as a Howdah, but alas, it is but a single.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (09/03/09 02:59 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: DarylS]
      #129097 - 09/03/09 03:45 PM

I think there would be quite a market (small but niche) for a run of cartridge loading Howdah pistols.

Pedersoli makes some Howdahs in muzzle stuffing format.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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450_366
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: NitroX]
      #129112 - 09/03/09 06:49 PM

But if one would make jones ul howdas in say 20 bore, would anyone buy them and what should they cost?

They would need to be fully rifled to get by the sawd off shotgun laws.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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thorshammer
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: 450_366]
      #129117 - 09/03/09 08:20 PM

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=14019

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thorshammer
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: thorshammer]
      #129118 - 09/03/09 08:22 PM

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...&hasJS=true

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empirevr
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: thorshammer]
      #129120 - 09/03/09 08:47 PM

I know the Pedersoli one, looks alright yes.

But a cartridge gun? is it very very hard to make? probably, but worth it!

Ben


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thorshammer
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: empirevr]
      #129121 - 09/03/09 09:13 PM

I dont know about hard to make might be illegal I know in the states you cannot have a shotgun that small unless I think you have a class 3 permit or fil out a shit load of paper work and buy a 200 dollar tax stamp but im sure firearms laws are different over there

Edited by thorshammer (09/03/09 09:21 PM)


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450_366
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: thorshammer]
      #129123 - 09/03/09 09:38 PM

If rifled is it still a shotgun?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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DarylS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: 450_366]
      #129143 - 10/03/09 01:19 AM

The Pedersoli's are small bore pistols - not Howdas. I guess it they want to call a .50 a Howdah, they can. That's like calling a Thompson Centre 1/2 stock a Hawken. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: DarylS]
      #129149 - 10/03/09 01:57 AM

I wanted to say something on that matter Daryl but you said it for me, good.

The 20-bore is Howdah cal alright, but I see no 12 or 16.

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: empirevr]
      #129152 - 10/03/09 03:20 AM

A 12 or 10 bore would be just about right for repelling tigers or grizzlies - take your pick.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: DarylS]
      #129158 - 10/03/09 05:07 AM

Im with you about the bore, 25 bore minimum.
Was there any single barrel Howdah pistol?
I alway consider a large bore pistol a howdah pistol, like my 12 bore pistol.
Martin


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szihn
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: beleg2]
      #129166 - 10/03/09 06:20 AM

There's some law that says breechloaders can be sold in the USA with bores larger then .51 cal because of some stupid ATF regulation. Even Bowen had to get a special license before he could make his 577 revolver. Now I know we have and sell 12 gage rifled guns here in the USA for use with slugs, and I am not sure how it gets around the ATF reg, but maybe there's a way to do it. If one was made for brass shells and had a rifled bore it could be legal.
Anyone know more about this than I do? Some one has to..........I know very little about them


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CowboyCS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: szihn]
      #129170 - 10/03/09 06:49 AM

You mean, I know something you don't Steve???? I'm shocked.
I'm not a lawyer and don't even pretend to play one on the internet, so if any of this is in error I apologize and you should check with the BATFE for clarification. Here's the story from ATF from the top of my head. In a muzzleloader it doesn't matter whether it is rifled or not, nor does bore size matter to ATF. When it comes to Cartridge pistols, ATF says that any thing over a .500 bore is a destructive device, doesn't matter whether it is rifled or not. You can apply for an Any Other Weapon permit(AOW) I don't remember off the top of my head what the tax for that is, but they get their money if you want to build one. The ATF says it must be rifled if it is shorter than the overall standards for a shotgun(18" barrel length, 26" overall),no smoothbores under the shotgun standard. The ATF also says that it can only fire one barrel at a time from one pull of the trigger, that doesn't mean you can't pull both triggers at the same time, but it must only fire one barrel from a single pull of the trigger, otherwise you have a machinegun and that requires a $200 tax and a whole different set of paper work. In a howdah configuration the legal limit in the u.S.A. would be .500 caliber, with either individual triggers or with a selective trigger and it must have the minimum rifling that would make it classify as a pistol. It must also meet all of the NFA and GCA requirements for a pistol.

The best example I can give of meeting the minimum requirements without paying the taxes is the companies that make a .45LC/.410 side by side derringer. They are under the .500 restriction and the last inch of the barrels are rifled making them a legal pistol. They will chamber and fire a 2 3/4" .410 shot shell but they are technically a pistol not a short barreled shotgun.

I believe there is probably a way around the ATF regs but the cost of production and the marketability would be limited. The ATF says that any action even a cartridge gun that is a pre-1898 is an antique and may be copied and doesn't fall under the GCA or NFA regulations, but it must be an exact copy of the action and it must fire an obsolete cartridge that isn't currently available through a commercial supplier in the u.S.A. and it cannot be a rimfire cartridge. Basically you would have to copy an action style that is easily proven to be a pre1898 design, it must be an exact replica and you could only chamber it in cartridges that aren't available commercially. Which presents the problem of even if the manufacturing cost didn't kill the idea, where does your customer get ammo? Kinda limits the market to handloaders only.

As to the rifled 12 gauge, they are defined by ATF as for sporting purposes only and are exempt, that is why some 12 gauges like the streetsweeper are considered a destructive device and are illegal(not sporting), while a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 with fully rifled barrel is legal(sporting). It's really just arbitrarily up to the BATFE Tech Branch.

And all that is worth what you paid for it, get it in writing for the BATFE if you plan to build something like a modern Howdah in a cartridge gun.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

Edited by CowboyCS (10/03/09 06:53 AM)


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mehulkamdar
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: CowboyCS]
      #129189 - 10/03/09 01:15 PM

Gentlemen,

About four or five years ago I had some correspondence with Lee Jurras who has built his Jurras Howdah Pistols on highly modified Contender frames in 577, 600 and 12 bore / 730 calibers. At the time he was building only long range rifles but he told me (in his very warm and friendly way) that he could still build the howdah pistols if someone wanted on the Contender or Encore frames if someone wanted them.

I also know that NE forum member Bigdog had / had a 600 Nitro Express Encore custom pistol which was built for him just two or so years ago.

Not sure what the regulations are but someone could check with Mr Jurras or Bigdog and find out as one used to build Modernised Howdah pistols and the other has a significantly bigger than 51 cal pistol that he shoots.

And, of course, now that you have this information, whoever has one built would be duty-bound to post pictures here once they start on this project.

Very good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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CowboyCS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #129193 - 10/03/09 01:53 PM

Contenders and Encores have a limited exemption from the BATFE. They are one of a very few pistols that can be converted back and forth from rifle to pistol without violating the BATFE regulations. The only reason this is even possible is because T/C spent millions fighting the BATFE all the way through the court system to get that exemption.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing


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RVM45
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building guns... [Re: CowboyCS]
      #140438 - 12/08/09 03:25 AM

I am more of an admirer of the Short Double Barrel Shotguns like you see in "Roadwarrior" or "Outlaw Dove the Outlaw Years"; than I am Howdah Pistols per se...

However, one day after examining one of the Remington 870 "Witness Protection" Shotguns at tha local gunstore, I had an epiphany...

A short barelled Pump; Double Barrel; Lever Action--whatever--would be perfectly legal if it had a rifled barrel; and it wasn't over .50 Caliber...

One Minor Caveat: You have to start with a virgin reciever--once a long Gun; always a long Gun--legally speaking.

.45-70 works out very well. It should do a fair job of simulating 12 Gauge Recoil. Think about it--payloads are roughly the same, velocity is roughly the same. .45-70 would have some torque introduced from the spin created by rifling. If you build your pistol to 12 Gauge scale; the thicker .45-70 walls will make your Gun Somewhat heavier. (This is probably a good thing...)

At any reasonable range, the .45-70 should approach 12 Gauge stopping power (At least the SP you'd get from a foot-long barrel).

Idea number (2) Chamber your pistol for .500 Smith & Wesson Magnum--gets you a wee bit closer to 12 Bore...

Idea number (3) make a pistol to 20 Gauge outside dimensions; and chamber it for the .375 Winchester...

Idea number (4) If you want more "Shotgun-Like" performance--chamber your pistol for some of the .50-140 Brass that you see. Use token Rifling and a screw-in choke.

28 Gauge is .55 Caliber--so frustratingly too large to "Rifle/.410" it...

But the 3 1/4 inch .50 with noticably more shot--and regretably--a much longer shot column--should be roughly comparable. The really annoying thing is not being able to use 28 Gauge Shotcups...

Maybe you could persuade a small plastic factory to run you off a few thousand .50/ 140 shotcups--or improvise them from Aluminum foil; or thin Sheet brass...

Anyway, Colin and I have discussed the idea at some length. I don't have a Lathe at present--and can't imagine getting two Foot-Long .45 Caliber barrel blanks both chambered and turned to the proper countour without a Lathe--though I'm sure someone can...

RVM45

--------------------
Though forced to live in exile in the Twenty-First Century; I'm still proud to be a citizen of the Twentieth Century.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building Howdahs [Re: DarylS]
      #366566 - 10/06/22 05:42 PM

Quote:

The Pedersoli's are small bore pistols - not Howdas. I guess it they want to call a .50 a Howdah, they can. That's like calling a Thompson Centre 1/2 stock a Hawken. Nothing could be farther from the truth.




Old thread but looking at some old threads.

Some breech loading howdah pistols were .360 calibre per a recent Westley Richards Explora thread.

As well as the usual .577 Snider cartridge.

Many muzzle loading examples before the rarer cartridge versions. Various bores of muzzle loading "howdahs". Entlemen's coach pistols are very similar. A member has posted on what he considers a true howdah pistol.

A Howdah pistol is a pistol designed to be used on a elephants saddle or platform is a howdah.

Popularly described to shoot an attacking tiger and maybe leopard off the back or head of the ridden elephant.

I assume a .455 Webley Revolver made a very good "howdah" pistol in later years. Though definitely not in the double Barrelled definition.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (10/06/22 05:55 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all of you building Howdahs [Re: NitroX]
      #366581 - 11/06/22 02:35 AM

The 4-barreled Lancaster I mentioned earlier, & chambered for the .577 Snider, for me would be the smallest "Howdah".
I don't think I would put much if ANY faith on the .455 Webley.
The vel. is very low, seems to me, 675fps or in that neighbourhood, and a pointy projectile making a very "neat" wound.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To mr Zihn and all building Howdahs [Re: DarylS]
      #366584 - 11/06/22 02:55 AM



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

Quote:

The .455 cartridge was a service revolver cartridge, featuring a rimmed cartridge firing a .45-caliber bullet at the relatively low velocity of 650 ft/s (190 m/s). The result was a cartridge and handgun combination with comparatively mild recoil. The .455 MK III "cupped" cartridge was rated superior to the .45 Colt in stopping power in the disputed United States Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904 that resulted in the adoption by the U.S. of the .45 ACP cartridge.[citation needed]




?

With my vast tiger hunting experience I am unsure. . But I think hitting it quickly the first requirement. And a revolver had plenty of follow up shots.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (11/06/22 03:12 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To mr Zihn and all building Howdahs [Re: DarylS]
      #366585 - 11/06/22 03:01 AM

Quote:

The 4-barreled Lancaster I mentioned earlier, & chambered for the .577 Snider, for me would be the smallest "Howdah".




The standard breech loading "howdah" pistol was probably a 577 double Barrelled handgun.

These 8-bore howdahs? Never heard of them? Or even a 12-bore rifled cartridge firing howdah pistol?

I think a smooth bore 12-bore howdah double barrelled pistol with a slug would be fine considering the very short ranges. As was written in another thread the trigger placement must be different to the usual shotgun action as the grip and finger reach is different on a pistol. .

Pity they are illegal in most places.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: To mr Zihn and all building Howdahs [Re: NitroX]
      #366599 - 11/06/22 05:48 AM

Not sure, but a muzzleloading or breachloader one could be made here, however one must hurry.
Making it after C21 is declared law, would make the pistol a prohibited device or firearm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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260rem
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Re: To mr Zihn and all building Howdahs [Re: NitroX]
      #366617 - 11/06/22 02:42 PM

Quote:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.455_Webley

Quote:

The .455 cartridge was a service revolver cartridge, featuring a rimmed cartridge firing a .45-caliber bullet at the relatively low velocity of 650 ft/s (190 m/s). The result was a cartridge and handgun combination with comparatively mild recoil. The .455 MK III "cupped" cartridge was rated superior to the .45 Colt in stopping power in the disputed United States Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904 that resulted in the adoption by the U.S. of the .45 ACP cartridge.[citation needed]




?

With my vast tiger hunting experience I am unsure. . But I think hitting it quickly the first requirement. And a revolver had plenty of follow up shots.




That's very reminiscent of the handgun for grizzly topic a little while back.
More rounds or bigger rounds and I'd think the same solution would fit both problems.
In the case of the Tiger it's suddenly right their a few feet in front of you, in the case of the bear it's more like a few meters.
You won't shoot a bear in defence with a handgun if you can back away, your only going to be shooting when it charges in close so very similar methods of defence should see some overlap in solutions.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.


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