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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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bp72double
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Reged: 12/12/08
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Loc: Arkansas USA
Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure?
      #128354 - 28/02/09 02:45 PM

Ok, I have a Pedersoli .72 double muzzleloader. I haven't had any problems with it, other than Pyrodex powder ignition. Works great with Goex 2f though! So I'm thinking I can put some musket sized nipples on it (Dixie has them threaded 1/4-28) and maybe help the ignition problems a lot. Does anyone know if this much hotter ignition will significantly raise pressures? or, is the pressure more totally dependent on powder charge and bullet weight...The gun shoots 150g of 2f and a roundball pretty well, and the #11 caps are still intact after firing. I have several pounds of Pyrodex that I'd love to shoot up before getting into the Goex, at least for targets and plinking. Anybody tried this before?
thanks!


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Tatume
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: bp72double]
      #128387 - 28/02/09 11:53 PM

If you use Hodgden 777 instead of Pyrodex you shouldn't have ignition problems, and it's much easier to clean than Pyrodex too.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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bp72double
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: Tatume]
      #128393 - 01/03/09 02:23 AM

I will have to try some of it, as it's easier to get. Easier to clean is always a plus. But, it costs so much more! I can buy Goex for $12/can (local dealer is 2 hours away). I kind of like the stink of regular BP too ;-) 777 is more like $25/can, though I can usually get it at Wal-Mart. Also, since low fences are the subject of half the posts I've read, I'm thinking that a stronger cap would be safer. Or possibly, if the nipple is shorter, it would be more shielded behind the existing fence. Seems that would be easier than re-welding and re-blueing the fences. If I could accomplish that along with more reliable ignition, it would be worth the $10 for the nipples!

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: bp72double]
      #128431 - 01/03/09 02:25 PM

Quote:

Also, since low fences are the subject of half the posts I've read, I'm thinking that a stronger cap would be safer. Or possibly, if the nipple is shorter, it would be more shielded behind the existing fence. Seems that would be easier than re-welding and re-blueing the fences. If I could accomplish that along with more reliable ignition, it would be worth the $10 for the nipples!




The subject of lowering the nipple seats is one I'd like to address. I need to get a hold of my buddies .58 to do some measuring to see if the nipple seat can be lowered. If so, it's a simple milling operation with an end-mill, then -re-start the threads for the nipple. It's possible the inner flash channel won't allow lower nipples - but that would be another design flaw. Too bad no one from Pedersoli fequents this forum - I'd like to have an e-mail barrage with him/her on design.

If the caps are still in place on the nipples after firing -good. Of course, the breech pressure with even 150gr. is still low even though the recoil is getting noticable.

As to Pyrodex - I'd suggest it be avoided. It is a chemical compositon, not a physical one and as such and with the chemicals involved, it leaves an acidic residue that is both hydroscopic and corrosive. Friend Dan P. says he can scope a barrel and tell if it's been used with Pyrodex. He's done a lot of shooting with ctg. and muzzleloading guns with about everything that passes for powder and has the experience in this regard- especially with pyrodex.

As to changing the nipples - you could do that. On the other hand, there are 'magnum-type' caps out there that have more or better intensity flashes and they might help.

Real BP, of course is the easiest to ignite, something just over 400F does it and that's why it's tougher to ship. Lucky for State's Side guys, there are shippers down there who ship it + the hazmat fee. Here, the blokes with the federal contract - they refuse to ship real BP. No one else is allowed to touch it. We all buy 25 pounds at a time at rondy's. Pyrodex and T7 is available locally for about $35.00 per can. Real BP - the good stuff, is $36.95 per can, but during the summer, it's around $18.00 at Rondy.

Because of it's cost and difficulty getting it to fire, we don't use the fake powders - too, they won't work in a flintlock anyway, without putting down some BP to get it going - what a pain just to use an inferior product. BP pressure are more consistent, accuracy is better and if loaded properly, doesn't foul. Your ball and patch need to be the right size and thickness - the crown must be correct to allow easy loading of proper combination. Smoothradius'd crown, ball .005" under bore size and a .018" to .025" denim patch depending on groove depth. the .72's have fairly shallow rifling, I'm told, and might benefit with a .010" smaller than bore size ball, and a .020" denim patch. If it isn't tight & the lube isn't right, BP fouls. Loaded correctly, you can shoot all day with maximum loads with never having to wipe the bore because the fouling NEVER builds up - and I don't care what rifle or smoothbore muzzleloader you are shooting, as long as the bore and grooves are relatively smooth. Smoothbores should use a ball that is .025" to .030" smaller than the bore and use a .020" denim patch. WW or pure lead works in smoothbores.

Some guys are experimenting with paper ctgs. and round balls, WW and pure lead and getting accuracy and power identical to patched round balls. Never shoot a slug in a bore rifle as they are inferior in killing or stopping power to a round ball. In doubles they become dangerous as the unfired slug will migrate forward - sometimes they both will, just being carried muzzle down. I've seen a guy with a TC walking along hunting with 1/2 a maxiball poking out his muzzle. This migration has rung other barrels, and the possibility should prevent their use in doubles. Said buddy tried them in his, and although they were cut by the lands when loaded, the left barrel's slug still moved forward when the right was shot. Slugs cannot be driven to anything like the speed of a round ball. Past 150 yards they may have a trajectory advantage, but to that, the ball is superior - how much game is shot past 150 yards with a muzzleloader. Hoppe's #9 PLUS works well for patch lube - hunting or plinking - winter or summer.

The most important part of the gun to allow loading of a proper combination, is the muzzle's crown - NO factory rifle comes with a proper crown that I've seen - I've seen a lot of them. If they even have a crown, some don't they are invarioably cut with a chamfer tool on a machine to cut time and costs and they all have sharp corners - some with flashing. Raduis those corners with your thumb and 320 emery cloth and the job is done - 10 min is all it takes from a machine-cut crown to a good smooth radiused crown. Lay the cloth on the surface,indent it hard with your thumb and rotate your hand, turning the gun 180 degrees every now and then. You can sue cutting fluid, or WD40 - or soap - or dry, doesn't matter. The corners must be 'broken' and smooth. This makes a good surface to swage the ball and patch into the grooves.

This missive covers a bit of stuff - hope it helps - check that crown and fix it if it needs this. Smooth corners allow seating tight combinations easily - tight combinations use all the powder's power and give the best accuracy and shoot the cleanest. When you load the next, you clean the last. There is no buildup.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bp72double
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Loc: Arkansas USA
Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: DarylS]
      #128445 - 01/03/09 04:36 PM

Daryl, thanks for the super informative post. I was wondering about lowering the nipple seats too-tried to think of a way to take an xray to show the chamber configuration, but since it's a double barrel I don't think I can get the right angle to show what I'd need to see. Maybe a straight lateral image but I don't think my xray machine will go thru 2 barrels adequately. You make a good case for just sticking with 2f black powder! It's so much cheaper and works so well, I really may not bother with the Pyrodex. I can buy Goex directly from a distributor, so no hazmat fee-hence $12/lb price. I will do the chamfer job-sounds easy enough. I'll shove a rag down the barrel to catch any stray abrasives or filings. That patch combo sounds pretty tight-I know I couldn't do it now without a big hammer. I've tried a denim patch and a .715 pure lead ball and it won't fit without a pounding. Lands should be .724 according to specs, though I haven't miked 'em myself yet. You're right about the conicals I think. I don't see how they could stay put in that left barrel with the recoil produced and that would be baaad with this much powder. It isn't a long distance gun anyway; I'm planning on getting a Whitworth for that, or maybe a Gibbs. 75 yards or so, and these big round balls really seem to smash things! I shot an 18" section of pressure treated 6x6 lumber at 50 yards or so, and sent it flying several feet, leaving a 2" hole on the exit side. Love that! I've been working on a fitted wood case for the gun and accessories, learning how to do that during the winter months here.
thanks again
Richard


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: bp72double]
      #128487 - 02/03/09 04:37 AM

Tks, Richard- as to fit of ball- we always start with a ball that is .005" smaller than the bore. I've heard those 12 bores have shallow rifling and due to that, a .715" ball would be OK and still shoot well. Get too small and accuracy becomes a problem with heavy loads.

With the .715" ball, I'd use a standard 10 pound denim. That will mic about .020" to .0215", with Hoppe's 9PLUS for lube. Note the PLUS - it's a black powder solvent and lube. Regualar Hoppe's #9 isn't. some guys use somethig like a BP bullet lube, softened with an oil like neetsfoot or olive oil, melted in a double boiler and mixed than let cool. it then becomes a heavy grease lube with no evaporation. Good for loading blocks.

I forgot to mention sticking a couple patches or rag down the tube before grinding away. Thanks for picking up on that. It's easy to re-crown.
Another method I use if I want a very short cone to assist tight loading, is to use one of the tapered stone wheels meant for an electric drill, available in hardware stores. I don't know the angle- maybe 30 degresss per side? Anyway- wrapp the 320 emery and turn it with your fingers or if you can clamp the muzzle straight up in a bench vice - for faster results, you can use an electric drill. Now, word of caution - the first few barrels I did, back in the 70's, needed correcting to get this short 3/8" long cone straight. It is best if there is someone to keep it straight one way while you keep it straight from the other direction. Frequent checking is advised. When using power, I use an oil - anything will work. After shooting today, I'll take a picture of my .58's muzzle which was crowned this way. In that one, I use a ball that is larger than the bore and a .015" denim patch. The rifling is only .003" deep and I don't need a hammer or mallet but must a descent starter with a 'stub' knob. One smack with the palm and it's in - then, another to put it down 5" with the starter's shaft, then from there, it's an easy push down the bore to the powder. Actual loading takes only about 15 seconds or less.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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David_P
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Reged: 22/01/09
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Loc: Minnesota
Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: DarylS]
      #128649 - 03/03/09 11:38 PM

I have shot and built a few BP firearms. As to pyrodex, I have heard too many people badmouth it for its corrosion no to take them seriously. Most claim that they clean and find serious rust afterwards. Another powder worth a try is the Swiss black powder if you can get it. It seems to run about $20 or so a pound, but is used a great deal in BPC competition as it burns moister. It has also been recommended for use with regular or even pistol primers as compared to GOEX with magnum primers in cartridge. Muzzleloading shooters like it also and claim it gives the same performance at about 10-15% less powder charge. Goex now makes an Express powder to compete with the Swiss. Goex itself has been a standby for years when nothing else was available and is not all bad. The real thing is what shooting a muzzel loader is all about. Another cure for low fences is to buy the brass flash cups available from suppliers like Track of the Wolf. I ahve used them on drum and nipple firearms and see no reason they would not work on patent breeches as they also protect the metal around the flash. They are very inexpensive.

--------------------
DP


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gapgar
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Reged: 26/02/09
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Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: David_P]
      #128958 - 07/03/09 06:20 PM

Ok, here is my question which is somewhat related: which nipples can be used to replace the factory ones on a Pedersoli Kodiak? I know that the threads are 1/4-28, but the nipples that came on the rifle seem unusually long.

The left hand nipple on my Kodiak came with the cone snapped off. I figure that this is a good opportunity to replace the nipples with a superior design, but when the hammer is down on the right side, the neck of the hammer is almost against the rear of the fence.

If even slightly shorter nipples were used, it seems that the face of the hammer wouldn't make it all the way down to the top of the cone.

Which nipples have worked for you guys? I'd rather not start grinding the back of the fences, or the front of the hammer neck on my $1000 rifle if at all possible.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: gapgar]
      #128999 - 08/03/09 08:22 AM

Only one thing you could do, is to use the nipples that allow the hammer strike them squarly. Trackofthewolf has about all the nipples necessary to get a good fit. Nipples that are too short for Pedersoli's design might cause the hammer's anvil to strike at an angle, ie: the fornt of the nipple or the rear, not squarely on the circle. That is not good. If striking at the front, it will direct gas and cap fragments to the rear. If at the rar, it will direct gasses forward, which is not bad in itself, but the rear of the nipple will pean from hammer blows and make caps stick.

Personally, I'd use a short a nipple as possible, even a pistol nipple so the fences would be operational and replace those stock hammers with a English designed hammer of the correct 'throw' for that short nipple.

Note the hammers available at Trackofthewold - everyone has a catolog, don't they? In the catolog, the pictures are full scale(size). Measure the throw needed on your gun, then find a muzzleloading hammer of the proper throw.

To find the proper throw, you measure from the centre of the hammer's screw (centre of the screw) to the centre of the nipple. That is the throw. Match it up and you are away. You might even find a true English design that is the correct throw. Some are engraved, some aren't. The Alex Henry (I think it was) is a nice design with a long nose to curl around the fence, the way they are supposed to fit. You might get lucky.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: Tatume]
      #129066 - 09/03/09 08:30 AM

Pyrodex and 777 have the same "active ingredient". Potassium perchlorate.

Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: Dphariss]
      #129071 - 09/03/09 09:21 AM

Sounds like a good reason to flush the 3 pounds I have down the toilet, or put it in the flower beds - about the end of July, when all the snow will be melted.

Dan - what about Black Mag 3? I was using it in the M71 Mauser (.450 Alaskan chamber), 20" barrel, with reasonably good results - 525gr. at 1,375fps with only 80gr. Yeah- the 5 1/2 pound carbine jumped a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gapgar
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: DarylS]
      #129171 - 10/03/09 07:34 AM

Thanks Daryl,

That's exactly the info I was looking for.

Greg


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: gapgar]
      #129445 - 13/03/09 05:24 PM

In humid Hawaii, I had nothing but Pyrodex for many years. Corrosion City, and the only thing I ever found to prevent it was cleaning X 2 a few days apart plus the use of a non-petroleum lube/rust preventive like 1000-Plus. "Seasoning" the barrel with this DOES seem to help.

Pyrodex is hard to ignite, and via trial with two identical .54 T/C Renegade rifles, I determined that the most reliable nipple is the Spitfire made by Mountain States Muzzleloading, now a part of Caines Outdoors. This nipple is also available in .005" graduations up to .275 X 28 which is a great boon in fitting a nipple in old MLs. The Spitfire has a hollowed-out base just like the old-time nipples I have removed from old guns, and according to Hodgdon, maker of Pyrodex, it likes a good spray of white-hot cap ignition fragments - just what you would get from such a nipple design. ALL my muzzleloaders, old and new, now carry Spitfire nipples.

Guns with heavy charges of BP may like a basic, non-magnum cap, and my Pedersoli Mortimer long range rifle gives better accuracy using 104 gr. of 1.5F Swiss if I use a standard CCI cap rather than a magnum. Ditto for gentler primers, even pistol primers, for BPE loads and the like.

Now on using a musket nipple, I think you will find it unnecessary if you:
1) discontinue using ANY petroleum-based oil or lube in your gun.
2) use a Spitfire nipple ( standard 1/4-28 is likely to do it in your Pedersoli). I've never had any problems switching from the longer Pedersoli nipples to Spitfires.
3) Give a few whacks on the side of your gun near the breech after loading your powder, especially Pyrodex, to bring a few grains very near the spray of particles from cap explosion.

If you do use a Musket nipple and cap, you will have more blast than you need for BP, and the heat and power is equal to that of a No. 209 primer (!). It will likely solve any problem with Pyrodex, but so will the Spitfire nipples. Use the suggested nipple cups with a regular-sized nipple if you like but if you are having a lot of blowback from firing and that is what worries you, it is likely due to an overlarge nipple orifice. The Spitfire nipple has a good orifice size of .039" to best of my recall.

You'll get a lot more pressure increase from going to Triple 7 or Swiss (and likely Goex Express too) than from a musket cap. It is quite true that you can use about 15% less of either of these powders and equal the velocity of Goex or Scheutzen BP. Pyrodex used to have more pressure with some loads than Goex, but that may no longer be the case with today's improved Goex. See the Lyman Black Powder Handbook for a great many eye-opening pressure tests.

One important point is that the larger the bore, the harder it is to build pressure. At .72 you are not developing a lot of pressure with, say, 4 drams (110 gr.) of ordinary BP. If going up from there, follow manufacturer's recommendations, keeping in mind their conservative nature (read, Italy has lawyers too). Pedersoli, unfortunately, put out Pyrodex loading info in GRAINS, not the volumetric measuring we know in the US.. This is highly confusing to shooters used to seeing Pyrodex loads by volume. I don't know whether they have corrected this, but did write to them some time ago about the problem.

For fascinating info on shooting slow-twist, high velocity rifling and round balls in guns from about 14 ga. up, read Lt. Forsyth's small 1862 book, "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles".

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #129469 - 14/03/09 01:44 AM

Correction on my post above: the Spitfire nipple has a .031 orifice rather than the .039 or so of other nipples, for decreased burnout and blow-back. Testing it against the Hotshot nipple in the two T/C .54 Renegades, I found there was little difference in ignition using the finer grained Pyrodex P, but with the coarser granularity of Pyrodex RS I would get occasional hangfires or misfires with the Hotshot nipple I had previously been using. This worsened with the slightly coarser Pyrodex Select, and such problems were exactly why I did the controlled experiment with the Spitfire nipple: same guns shot by shot, same load, same loader/shooter, same day - the only significant variable being the nipple used. The Spitfire came thru with flying colors using RS and Select Pyrodex, loading as above in yesterday's post, and has been the nipple I use for ALL ML powders ever since.

Yes, I do clean my nipples after shooting, because they are screwed in only moderately tight using readily available teflon thread-wrap like plumbers use. You would be surprised at the crud that can build up in the base of a nipple or in the channel below it, particularly with pistols where there is less pressure to blow this out shot by shot.

The key to good, safe nipple function is to use the correct size for a given gun. Standard "1/4 X 28" nipples should measure .250" D. with 28tpi threads. Even Spitfire nipples may be .245 D. so they fit tighter nipple holes in guns, but if you deal with old guns, it is wise to have a selection from standard (.245) on up to .275 to try out for fit, and use the tightest one that will fairly readily screw in to the gun with two wraps of teflon tape on the threads. Often, one side of an old double takes a different size than the other!

If you do have any nipples that have burned out, measure the diameter with calipers or a mic and then create some diagonal cuts across the threads with a fine triangular file (diamond file is easiest for all purposes) so as to create a tap of sorts, or thread clean-out if you will. You can use such fabricated "taps" to clean out old, corroded nipple holes, and you can also use hard modern nipples of correct size to swage the threads of old guns to a degree since their metal is softer. Just be sure you have the next larger size of nipple (.005" increments) to put in place.

And be SURE you are using the correct thread pitch for the gun in question, whether replacing a nipple or doing the clean-out or swaging above. A number of guns, old or new, will have metric threads, and that's a different ballgame. Always screw in a nipple a couple of turns by hand, to be sure it fits the threads AND that it is not cross-threaded in the hole.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Musket Cap/Nipple: higher pressure? [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #129481 - 14/03/09 03:42 AM

I meant www.trackofthewolf.com .

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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