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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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empirevr
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Got to ask-is this a good one or not?
      #127744 - 22/02/09 07:35 PM

http://www.jagd-waffe.com/index.php?goto=waffe&id=180&type=buechsen&page=1

Looks superb, but are those barrels off face? has it been reconditioned or is this just a terribly well preserved gun?

Thankyou one and all

Ben

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casper50
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: empirevr]
      #127746 - 22/02/09 07:52 PM

They look loose to me. But, I've owned 15 - 20 Jones underlever guns and have never seen one that was off face, and some of them were really used hard.

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peter
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: casper50]
      #127749 - 22/02/09 08:58 PM

ben

dont worry so much about wether or not the gun is off face, it is an easy fix and wont cost much.
the gun in question has a much more importent feature, it has the reloading toys with it so the road to make it shoot to regulation is a lot easyer than with others.

depending on condition most gunsmiths will charge you around 100-150 euro to fix an off face condition.

this gun is nice.

best

peter

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empirevr
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: peter]
      #127753 - 22/02/09 09:19 PM

Thankyou Casper and Peter

-is that original or refinished condition???

Ben

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peter
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: empirevr]
      #127758 - 22/02/09 10:17 PM

Quote:

Thankyou Casper and Peter

-is that original or refinished condition???

Ben



is that importent ?

it looks like it is original or an old good refinish.

could we please hold the "is the finish original debate" to american guns where it is valid.
this is a good irish rifle and it may have been refinished once every 2-3 years by the maker or somebody equally as good, we dont know and as long as the work looks good i dont care

best

peter

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Caprivi
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: peter]
      #127775 - 23/02/09 02:21 AM

I would agree with what has been stated. The side portraits have the look of it being a bit "loose" but the top down photo appears to be nice a snug. I would find it hard to believe a gun in this condition and a Jones underlever would be "Off Face". As Peter stated even if off, it is not expensive to repair.

Is 4500e a good price for this ???? Seems high but I know little of this particular gun. Possibly not as that would be 5700us or so today so may indeed be okay price wise.

Yes as far as refurbished ???????????? I would susbect most all vintage guns on the Isle or Continent have made a visit to the maker for a bit of going over. It was very much a standard practice, much like your Range Rover or Porchse today needing a bit of time away from the owner for Spa.

Peter, as I assume this is a bit of a swipe at us uncouthed colonists, if I may ask a serious question, What is the difference in importance in a say English gun being refurbished and a American gun being refurbished.

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DarylS
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Caprivi]
      #127780 - 23/02/09 02:43 AM

I love it - love those early fences. Looks like a round ball mould and 3 leaves to the sight - descent bore size, then?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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peter
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Caprivi]
      #127786 - 23/02/09 03:17 AM

Quote:


Peter, as I assume this is a bit of a swipe at us uncouthed colonists, if I may ask a serious question, What is the difference in importance in a say English gun being refurbished and a American gun being refurbished.



caprivi

not as much a swipe at you guys from the us, this is more of a sneer at the collectors from all over the world bringing values from fabrication guns(winchester or colt) into the world of dbl rifles without actually getting a bit of knowlegde or history in the process.

the refinished or factory fresh is maybe valid in a discussion of stuff that came out the same, item after item, but it has no place when talking fine guns from europe.

as far as i understand it there is a huge price difference on a colt revolver wether or not it has been redone and freshned up or if it still has the original finish.
if an english gun has been back to the factory, or if the factory dont excist any more, then at an other maker it bears no ill will towards the price.

best regards

peter

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500Nitro
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: peter]
      #127789 - 23/02/09 05:17 AM


caprivi


in regards to "refurbished" guns, the better off people in the UK send guns back to the makers at the end of the hutning seasons to fix up any problems, give them the "once over"
and then every so often, a full refurb.

This was just the way it has always been in the UK.

Therefore you wouldn't know if a gun had been refurbished
in a lot of cases.


You then got what I would all a "clash of cultures" when the English gun craze took off in the US as IMHO, refurbished guns are looked down on in the US over originility and they then applied this to English guns which shouldn't have been done.

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #127797 - 23/02/09 07:40 AM


This doesn't appear to be off-face at all. The barrels, however, look to be slightly proud of the fences a bit, but I don't see any indication of them being off-face.

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empirevr
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #127834 - 23/02/09 05:21 PM

Chaps

Let me put it another way........refurbished in my mind was a hint at TOSHED UP! i.e. it looks SO clean given its age etc, and also the condition of the case, that I was wondering if it had been tarted up a little.

I love it, and have known about it for over a year.......20 bore is off the beaten track though, any data guys? Daryl? Isnt it generally a 3" case???

If so, surely it would be like the never-invented .600 bpe.....?? Or perhaps it would be similar to the 20/577 Henry round/load???

Thankyou kindly-oh off face I used as a broad term for barrels that arent tight to the action, sorry if used incorrectly but main thing is you all saw what I see.

Ben

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Marrakai
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: empirevr]
      #127837 - 23/02/09 06:35 PM

To my eye, the gun has the appearance of having been rust-blued all over. It is likely that the original finish on the bar at least would have been case-coloured or possibly bright. A look at the finish on the flats would be telling.

We have to be thankful, though, as it has not been re-coloured with the lurid purple and yellow we see all too often on British guns refurbished in the US!

Nice looking gun, by the way. An early one judging by the percussion-style fences as Daryl says, but not as early as the Kavanagh in my collection!

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Marrakai
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127838 - 23/02/09 06:45 PM

Thanks Tony.....any ideas on what chamber length she would be???

I dont remember where there is any info on the 20ga case!!!!!!! Nothing online anyway, and dont have my books to hand.

Isnt it a 3" case???

Thanks

Ben

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peter
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: empirevr]
      #127844 - 23/02/09 11:02 PM

ben

it will most likely be a 2,5" case and you can still get them as components so all is good there.

best

peter

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Marrakai
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: peter]
      #127845 - 23/02/09 11:21 PM

Quote:

any ideas on what chamber length she would be???


peter is probably right, and the 20-bore 'Fauneta' cases are 2.54 to 2.58 according to George Hoyem and my own measurements, but many brass cases were 2 3/4 in length I believe. For example, the 20-bore/.577 you mentioned is formed from the 20-bore 2 3/4 inch brass rifle case necked down to .585 inch.

Personally never heard of a 3-inch 20-bore rifle cartridge from the vintage years, and neither has Hoyem apparently!

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Marrakai
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peter
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127851 - 23/02/09 11:48 PM

sorry marrakai

i forgot about the good lenghts 2 3/4" for serios cartg. making

cheers

peter

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rigbymauser
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: peter]
      #127865 - 24/02/09 02:30 AM



Hmmm...20bore...3 drams of black + a roundball...One can catch it with a baseballglove..hahaha

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casper50
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #127868 - 24/02/09 03:39 AM

The label looks to say 2 1/2 drams #6 C&H, ball of 3/4 oz and a 1oz bullet.

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Sarg
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127889 - 24/02/09 07:38 AM

Hey guys I did see a 3-1/4 in 20 Bore 7 Dram at 11Lbs 12oz , would be one of the only small bores I would have (love to have !) the owner had been shooting 800gr slugs in it ,I think the wrong weight ?, foolishly trying to turn it into a 600NE or light Nitro ! and the rifle was showing some pressure signs or stress signs !

Purdy 20 Bore 3-1/4 7Dr














These 2 pics are Tinkers !

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Marrakai
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Sarg]
      #127917 - 24/02/09 01:49 PM

Wow! Even longer than the .600NE! How rare would that chambering be?!

Amazing!

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Marrakai
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peter
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127944 - 24/02/09 09:25 PM

7 drams load, this is a serious dG rifle im green.

peter

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Huvius
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: empirevr]
      #128006 - 25/02/09 11:41 AM

Don't know about that rifle, but there is something on this site which I thought was a "good one".
So I bought it...
I guess my wife and I will give up speaking for Lent...

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DarylS
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #128015 - 25/02/09 12:37 PM

Quote:



Hmmm...20bore...3 drams of black + a roundball...One can catch it with a baseballglove..hahaha



Not a glove on my hand. That's 82gr. with a .615" ball, weighing 300gr. at about 1,250fps , maybe a bit higher. Brother put a load like that lengthwise through a deer 2 falls ago - might want to pad that glove a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: DarylS]
      #128017 - 25/02/09 12:41 PM

7 drams was my heavy load for my double 12 bore with round ball - 1,550fps. Also the heavy 12 bore load listed in WW Greener's 9th edition.

My pelter only weighed 7 1./2 pounds and too many of those broke cracked the wrist stock. Stock repaired & all OK - and the present owner is using it to kill his moose, dear and black bear along with grouse, annually.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: Got to ask-is this a good one or not? [Re: DarylS]
      #128040 - 25/02/09 09:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Hmmm...20bore...3 drams of black + a roundball...One can catch it with a baseballglove..hahaha



Not a glove on my hand. That's 82gr. with a .615" ball, weighing 300gr. at about 1,250fps , maybe a bit higher. Brother put a load like that lengthwise through a deer 2 falls ago - might want to pad that glove a bit.



Yep...one might think again anyway ...`em roundballs are highly under-estimated. Sir Baker preferred roundballs over conicals in his 4 Bore.

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