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empirevr
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Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge?
#127695 - 22/02/09 05:37 AM

Are there any at all over the .500 bpe???

More gusto or the same thing???

Thanks

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gatsby
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
#127713 - 22/02/09 09:03 AM

I am not sure what your asking; 577/500 31/8 compared to the 577/500 #2 or one or both compared to 500bpe's? The 577/500#2 has 30'06 type energy, the 577/500 has more pop, the various 500bpe's give various ballistics scattered equal, below and inbetween the two.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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empirevr
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: gatsby]
#127732 - 22/02/09 05:33 PM

Well gatsby I am asking about the 577/500 No.2 as I got the impression it was like a magnum .500 bpe.......its a bottle neck cartridge.

But, what is the case length? if its 3" surely it is a magnum 500 bpe, no?

What I mean is, does it fire the .510 bullet with the same potency as the 577 bpe?

Thanks

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CFWs
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
#127762 - 22/02/09 11:41 PM

Empirevr,

The 577/500#2 has a case length of 2 13/16". The 577/500 magnum is 3 1/4".

The standard load of the day was 130grs. powder w/ a 340gr. or 380gr. bullet. The one I own regulated nicely with this load.

It is basically the same as a 500 3" BPE, although I have found it easier to load with todays black powder because of the increased case capacity.

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empirevr
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: CFWs]
#127833 - 23/02/09 05:10 PM

Thankyou CFW

Just what I was looking for info wise.

Ben

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Marrakai
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
#127952 - 24/02/09 10:51 PM

Thought I'd toss some comparative data on the end of this thread, just for the record.

Ballistics and load data from the 1926 ICI catalogue:

Cartridge ---------- Powder- Bullet- Pressure- MV(fps)- ME(ftlbs)

.500 BPE ----------- 136gr - 340gr -- 11 tons - 1925 -- 2800
.500 NforB --------- 55grC - 440gr - <10 tons - 1900 -- 3530

.577/.500 #2 BPE --- 130gr - 340gr -- 10 tons - 1850 -- 2590
.577/.500 #2 NforB - 53grC - 440gr - <10 tons - 1675 -- 2743

.577/.500 Mag BPE -- 164gr - 440gr -- 11 tons - 1875 -- 3440
.577/.500 Mag NforB- 60grC - 440gr - <10 tons - 1725 -- 2910

You will note some interesting things here, such as 60gr cordite in the .577/.500 Magnum generates only 1725 fps, whereas in the .500 straight-case the lesser charge of 55gr cordite generates 1900 fps, both with 440gr projectiles. As all modern reloaders of these cartridges know, the larger-volume case is more of a handicap than a help when loading smokeless!

Looking at the Muzzle Energy figures:
The clear winner in BPE loadings is the .577/.500 Magnum.
The clear winner with NforB loads is the .500 3-inch straight-case.

Sadly the .500 No.2 lags behind in every respect.
It is a charismatic cartridge though, and I dearly love the Rodda so-chambered in my collection.

Of course, today it is possible to load these cartridges up or down at will, especially in a single-shot, but it is likely that most quality doubles will regulate at or near the ballistics published in the catalogues of the day. Most of mine do!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurl
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: Marrakai]
#127983 - 25/02/09 06:36 AM

Marrakai,

Here again we see that N-for-B loads developed superior ballistics at lower pressures than black powder loads, even with Cordite.

Our modern N-for-B loads are kinder yet on these wonderful antiques, as demonstrated by Graeme Wright's pressure data.

We have reason to be happy with that phenomenon. Who was it in an earlier thread who expounded against firing N-for-B loads in antique damascus?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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empirevr
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: CptCurl]
#128025 - 25/02/09 05:24 PM

Thanks gents.......great stuff!!!

Check out my load question about to be posted.

Thanks

Ben

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93x64mm
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
#258697 - 06/01/15 06:52 PM

Folks,
was looking thru bits & pieces & found this one!
Can I get the grey matter going out there & see what turns up?

Firstly what is it's actual full case dimensions, I've looked around a fair bit but with no success!
It would be nice to have them all including body, shoulder & neck lengths if possible so I can calculate its approximate case capacity - surely it must be greater than 110gn of water?

Yes I only want to load BP for this potential project!

Secondly if this beast is able to squeeze into a large frame Martini-Henry then I might be onto a winner as I would rather have only it fitted with an English round - in this case anyway!
Obviously I'd need dies & reamer - CH4D for dies, reamer?

As an after thought, was there ever a ".500" made directly on the .577 Snider case or a necked up 577-450?
This case would be over 130gn+ so would make the grade for Black Powder Express!
Any thoughts - I'm open for suggestions?
Cheers
93x64mm

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underlever
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: 93x64mm]
#258700 - 06/01/15 09:57 PM

I believe that the 500 No2 was a Westley Richards cartridge as they are a standard in their improved martini. A bottle necked round is just perfect for getting around the curve of a martini type action and I feel it was no coincidence that WR developed this round ( I think anyway ) and it being used in their improved action. When they developed this action the 500 3" would have been a very popular round and this would not work in it. To promote the new martini it would have made sense to have a round that gave fairly close ballistics to the 500 3" but allow it to work it their own rifle, hopefully making it a good seller. I have one of these in 500 No2 which I use and I also have a large martini action which I will dig up and compare.
Mine has metford rifling, which is fairly worn, and although I've tried lots of combinations, so far only paper patched bullets and black powder make it shoot well. But then again, it was designed for this combo.
I have at least 1 original round which I will do a drawing of and post.

Underlever

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kuduae
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: underlever]
#258703 - 07/01/15 12:22 AM

Quote:

I believe that the 500 No2 was a Westley Richards cartridge as they are a standard in their improved martini. A bottle necked round is just perfect for getting around the curve of a martini type action and I feel it was no coincidence that WR developed this round ( I think anyway ) and it being used in their improved action. When they developed this action the 500 3" would have been a very popular round and this would not work in it. To promote the new martini it would have made sense to have a round that gave fairly close ballistics to the 500 3" but allow it to work it their own rifle, hopefully making it a good seller.

IMHO this was the reason for another Westley-Richards cartridge too, incidentially named "No.1", the .500/.450 No.1 BPExpress, 2 3/4" case. Just like the .577/.500 No.2 BPE is close to the .500 3" BPE, merely bottlenecked, so is the .500/.450 No.1 BPE to the popular .450 3 ¼" BPE.
At least two other cartridges originated with the difficulty of the Martini type action to digest long, straight cases:
The British military selected the Martini action as their then preferred military rifle, but wanted to use Alexander Henry's barrel and load. Henry's original cartridge, a coiled brass, straight .450 3 ¼", did not fit a Martini action of reasonable length, so they designed the bottlenecked .577/.450 Martini-Henry to take Henry's powder charge and bullet.
When gun and ammo supply from Germany dried up during and post WW1, the most popular hunting cartridge in Switzerland was the 9.3x72R. But this long, almost straight number did not work with the Swiss domestic Haemmerli Martini actions, so they designed their 9.3x53R Swiss, factory loaded to merely copy the ballistics of the 9.3x72R Swiss factory load.

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AFRO408
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: 93x64mm]
#273003 - 11/11/15 05:43 AM

Quote:

Folks,
was looking thru bits & pieces & found this one!
Can I get the grey matter going out there & see what turns up?

Firstly what is it's actual full case dimensions, I've looked around a fair bit but with no success!
It would be nice to have them all including body, shoulder & neck lengths if possible so I can calculate its approximate case capacity - surely it must be greater than 110gn of water?

Yes I only want to load BP for this potential project!

Secondly if this beast is able to squeeze into a large frame Martini-Henry then I might be onto a winner as I would rather have only it fitted with an English round - in this case anyway!
Obviously I'd need dies & reamer - CH4D for dies, reamer?

As an after thought, was there ever a ".500" made directly on the .577 Snider case or a necked up 577-450?
This case would be over 130gn+ so would make the grade for Black Powder Express!
Any thoughts - I'm open for suggestions?
Cheers
93x64mm

G'day 9.3x64,
I am building a 577-500 No2 on a large frame Martini and have the reamer and Go gauge.
I got my dies from CH4D and they had them on the shelf!

I will fill a case with water and let you know the capacity. I have to do it so I can use Quick Load to work out my safe loads.
I'll be using PP 580gr & PP 500gr bullets, from my own moulds. I made the mould so I could test Jeff's 500 NE, Ruger No1, a couple of years ago.

Will post more pics later, if that's ok with the OP?

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

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93x64mm
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: CptCurl]
#300836 - 26/05/17 07:32 PM

Quote:

Marrakai,

Here again we see that N-for-B loads developed superior ballistics at lower pressures than black powder loads, even with Cordite.

Our modern N-for-B loads are kinder yet on these wonderful antiques, as demonstrated by Graeme Wright's pressure data.

We have reason to be happy with that phenomenon. Who was it in an earlier thread who expounded against firing N-for-B loads in antique damascus?

Curl

Capt Curl & Marrakai
I have been contacted by a mate who spotted an old double (underlever type) rifle on his travels. He believes that it doesn't have Damascus barrels so could be of fluid steel perhaps? The owner was going to use a load AR2208 (Varget), I nearly had a heart attack telling him tell the owner to use BP only!

If the rifle was a Martini I would have suggested to use a NFB load if one was available.
I've tried looking on the web with not much success & even Graham Wright's book does help in this regard.
So if anyone out there can help with any loads such as duplex BP load or NFB load that develops BP pressures then can you help out please so I can pass this info on.
Kind regards
93x64mm

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CptCurl
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: 93x64mm]
#300838 - 26/05/17 08:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Marrakai,

Here again we see that N-for-B loads developed superior ballistics at lower pressures than black powder loads, even with Cordite.

Our modern N-for-B loads are kinder yet on these wonderful antiques, as demonstrated by Graeme Wright's pressure data.

We have reason to be happy with that phenomenon. Who was it in an earlier thread who expounded against firing N-for-B loads in antique damascus?

Curl

Capt Curl & Marrakai
I have been contacted by a mate who spotted an old double (underlever type) rifle on his travels. He believes that it doesn't have Damascus barrels so could be of fluid steel perhaps? The owner was going to use a load AR2208 (Varget), I nearly had a heart attack telling him tell the owner to use BP only!
If the rifle was a Martini I would have suggested to use a NFB load if one was available.
I've tried looking on the web with not much success & even Graham Wright's book does help in this regard.
So if anyone out there can help with any loads such as duplex BP load or NFB load that develops BP pressures then can you help out please so I can pass this info on.
Kind regards
93x64mm

What is the caliber of this double your mate spotted?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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3DogMike
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: CptCurl]
#300844 - 27/05/17 02:32 AM

Hi 9.3x64mm
A couple of observations:
1) Damascus barrels are NOT a deal breaker for shooting proper Nitro for Black loads in a rifle in good condition.
2) Duplex loads for BP are easy.....~10% Accurate 5744 under a commensurate amount of BP. Weight of BP reduced by 3x the weight of smokeless. ie: in a .500 3" (nominally 136 grains of black) you would use roughly 13 grains of 5744 then use 95-100 grains of black. As with straight Black Powder do not tolerate any air space between powder and bullet base use wads or lube cookies as necessary.
3) a safe Nitro load for most any BP Express would be 40-44% of the original BP load (by weight) using H4198, magnum primer, and either packed in Dacron filler, foam backer rod, or the foam wads from Kynoch.
4) Graeme Wright does have Varget used in some of his loads but there is, as you note, no mention of some more obscure calibers like the .500 No.2. Not that it could not be figured out......

Easiest course of action for a "Nitro for Black" BP Express double rifle to start is look up the old NfB load and use that bullet weight paired with % H4198 of the original BP load as above. Then work from there.
Often the load of H4198 is very close to the original NfB load of Cordite.

Pretty much all this info can be found in 3rd edition of Graeme Wright's book.
Make sure your mate understands that these are not to be expected to be loaded to exceed the old specs.

Note: I have a William Richards, Liverpool .500 No.2 and love it.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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93x64mm
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: 3DogMike]
#300852 - 27/05/17 07:42 AM

CC & 3DM,
my mate is still in transit, I will catch him next week at work, hopefully he will have more details for us then; over the phone he told me that the owner of the rifle said the calibre was 577-500 No2. Army & Navy and 1890 was mentioned so I presume that was the date that company had the rifle made/sold the rifle; sorry for the sketchy details but mobile phone reception wasn't to great at the time!
Wasn't sure if he even got to look at the action flats for any more info but when it comes to hand I will pass it on to you guys so you can verify data!

Thanks for the help guys, this is why sites like this are invaluable; there are a lot of wonderful old rifles out there sitting in cupboards not being used, now they can be & SAFELY!
Will keep you informed
Many thanks
93x64mm

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93x64mm
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: AFRO408]
#317488 - 24/06/18 08:04 AM

[quote
G'day 9.3x64,
I am building a 577-500 No2 on a large frame Martini and have the reamer and Go gauge.
I got my dies from CH4D and they had them on the shelf!

I will fill a case with water and let you know the capacity. I have to do it so I can use Quick Load to work out my safe loads.
I'll be using PP 580gr & PP 500gr bullets, from my own moulds. I made the mould so I could test Jeff's 500 NE, Ruger No1, a couple of years ago.

Will post more pics later, if that's ok with the OP?

Any more detail on your rifle & load AFRO408?
My mate contacted the double owner but he rejected all our help.
Such is life.

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