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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Ok-what is it?
      #127270 - 16/02/09 05:30 PM

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...9&saletype=

A smoothie double rifle or just a later addition?

Thankyou

Ben

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: empirevr]
      #127279 - 16/02/09 07:15 PM

Shotgun; long barrels, light weight, tight chokes. I believe the sites are for shotgunning. Why would your first site be 100yds on a big bore ball gun?

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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André
.333 member


Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: gatsby]
      #127283 - 16/02/09 08:02 PM

I think is an ancient punt gun, a tight choked heavy caliber smoothbore, meant to be used on long range sitting ducks. It was fired prone from a "punt" boat in wich the hunter approached the large number of ducks resting on water. The heavy loads were intended to kill as many birds as possible per shot.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: André]
      #127290 - 16/02/09 08:23 PM

Thanks for the info guys.

I am just not used to sights on shotguns!

Ben

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3652
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: empirevr]
      #127294 - 16/02/09 09:39 PM

We are going to need to know more about that gun before jumping to conclusions.

I never like to say never, but the Tolley boys would never have made a SxS double punt gun with sight-leaves to 150 yds! They would (almost) never have made a shotgun with a capped pistol grip.

Also, Tolley made a shed-load of plain-finished fowlers, and would have been extremely unlikely to have put that standard of engraving on a punt-gun!

IMHO this was a big double rifle that has been bored out to comply with a shotgun certificate, when the laws tightened up in the UK.

...but without an examination of the proofs, who knows?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127300 - 16/02/09 11:18 PM

I'm with Gatsby here. Under 12 lbs for a rifle??, Highly unlikely, in my opinion.

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: jaz]
      #127308 - 17/02/09 01:05 AM

I'm no expert, but I think it is a "shot and ball" gun. To me, the rear sight looks exactly like a sight with both leaves made to fold down. If you look closely at the picture you can see the recess where the erect leaf goes when folded. With both leaves down it is ready to shoot "shot". With one or the other leaf up it is ready to shoot "ball". Perhaps "leaf sights for 100 and 150 yards" is a misprint. It would make more sense if that was supposed to read "leaf sights for 50 and 100 yards". It was not unusual for this type of gun to have three folding leaves: 50, 100, 150 yards. So, another possibility is that the owner was optimistic and, with only two leaves, wanted 100 and 150 yards.

~

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~

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3585
Loc: Colorado
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: Grenadier]
      #127317 - 17/02/09 02:29 AM

I think it is a J&W Tolley "Ubique".
There is another thread in the Paradox and bore gun section with a copy of an original ad stating they are four pounds lighter than a fully rifled gun.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=108603&an=0&page=2#Post108603
-scroll down a ways to tinker's post-

It also states that they will make them on their "smooth bore Ubique" principle.
This may actually be an unaltered gun...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (17/02/09 02:55 AM)

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: Huvius]
      #127349 - 17/02/09 11:11 AM


I don’t think this gun was ever a rifled choke gun ( would to have to have been made after 1900) or a dedicated ball and shotgun as it left the factory. The Tolley catalogue indicates their 10 bore Ubique weighs 12 lbs. Rifled choke barrels, particularly on a big bore are heavy. A rifled choke 8 bore gun with 34” barrels would have left the factory weighing more than 15Lbs. I guess it is possible that the barrels have been altered internally but with the barrel length the emphasis with this gun would have been on wildfowling first anything else secondary. The documented ball guns (post 1878) I have seen all have had original barrel lengths less than 28” and were heavy, some as heavy as rifles of the same bore. This is a great old big bore and I would be proud to have it but it is what it is.
I would like to plug Donald Dallas’s The British Sporting Gun and Rifle; an excerpt;




--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3652
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: gatsby]
      #127358 - 17/02/09 01:49 PM

Have to agree, the barrels are way too long for a modified rifle.

Looks like you've nailed it, Gatsby!

BTW I'll never say 'never' again.....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3585
Loc: Colorado
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127370 - 17/02/09 05:31 PM

Quote:

Have to agree, the barrels are way too long for a modified rifle.



I'm not arguing here, but I am not so sure we can judge anything as a certainty by barrel length.
Omnivorous Bob's 8bore Jeffery has 32" barrels and the Westley he has pictured with his has much longer barrels than that. The WR has 4" chambers too.
Right now, Cabelas has an 8bore Tolley shotgun with 40" barrels which weighs the same as the 34" gun in question. Tells me there may be more meat in the 34" barrels.

Do the Tolley Ubique guns have definite markings such as WR Exploras or Faunetas do?
Does anybody know of an original smooth bore (not a rifled choke gun)Ubique from which measurements could be taken?
Really is too bad their original advertisements say nothing of barrel length.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: Huvius]
      #127380 - 17/02/09 06:59 PM

Huvius,
You are right this is not arguing but merely discussion. I know I have a lot of opinion mixed with my facts. I just think the gun as is, taking into consideration the marked site distances, the barrel lengths,the weight ( Bob's 8 bore weighs 15.5lbs and there is an 8 bore Holland ballgun listed here in the archives with 27" barrels and 13lbs) and the tight chokes, is meant for shotgunning. But I will have to agree with Marrakai when it comes to English guns never say never.
Is there anybody out there with a Tolley big bore ballgun?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: gatsby]
      #127386 - 17/02/09 08:36 PM

I guess the sights make sense when you consider Tolley's claim that the guns were good for 120 yards.

Charles Askins(?)found that a load of large birdshot dropped 3 feet in 100 yards, so 20 yards more could be 5 feet to account for.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3585
Loc: Colorado
Re: Ok-what is it? [Re: Paul]
      #127399 - 18/02/09 01:12 AM

The sights do make a lot of sense on a big bore like this, especially at these ranges - as paul suggests. I know punt guns were used to shoot birds on the water so maybe this gun too would have been used to take a more carefully aimed shot from the shore and the sights would have helped. I don't know how effective they would be wingshooting - I guess we could ask members here with paradoxes, exploras, or bouldersmith's magnum if they have tried the sights wingshooting

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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