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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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oupa
.300 member

Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA

45-70 quandry, let fly the comments
#126468 - 10/02/09 03:32 AM

I'm well acquainted with the love/hate attitudes toward the 45-70. I'm planning a rifle though and while the more historic and or "correct" chamberings are all inviting my take is this.

I'm never going to shoot an elephant save the unlikely chance of winning the lotto, in which case I will be able to buy a "proper" double. Fact is this rifle will be more a fun gun than anything and most likely any hunting will be game far below even the 45-70 potential for killing. Open sights and me don't get along beyond fifty to seventy-five yards anyway so range isn't an issue. I've looked at the ballistics of the classic double rifle chamberings as well as the longer "American" 45's and I just don't feel the justification for my purposes is worth the considerable extra expense in components. 45-70 brass, dies, etc. are quite available and inexpensive compared to the more traditional dbl. rifle calibers. Am I missing something? Aside from nostalgia that is.

All comments pro and con are encouraged. I'm not particularly enthralled about the caliber but it does seem prudent to me.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
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Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: oupa]
#126469 - 10/02/09 03:45 AM

as long as you are buying a rifle with a cartg. that you like, and stay withinn the inherent limitations of said cartg. ALL THE POWER TO YOU !!!!!

best regards

peter

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: oupa]
#126470 - 10/02/09 03:52 AM

45-70 is great for just about any hunting you are likely to do in the USA other than mayby hign mountain goats and sheep. I am still planning the shotgun SXS to double 45-70 myself. It will be a great boar gun and great for deer or black bear where ranges are usually 100 yrds or less. I have the gun (Belgian hammer sxs), barrel inserts (ace 18 inch chambered sleeves for 12 ga). I only lack the time and some tools or assistance with things I can't really do myself. But, it will come.
I have a nice 1867 dated remington RB in 45-70 sporter. Originally a 11mm Danish RF / CF. The chamber is correct for 45-70. The bore is a little oversize (grooves) but the rifling is so heavy, it seems to accept most .458-.459 bullets or my HB 405 gr cast and shoot them very well.
I assisted a friend in taking a very large 2000 lb plus bison a couple years ago with this rifle. The big lead bullet with a backing of black powder went through the chest, taking out the lower heart and stopped under the hide in the opposite upperfront leg / shoulder. The big old bull just folded. This was after 3 shots from the original hunter's 45-70 marlin shooting 300 gr winchester loads. These were a bit high and the buff went down briefly. When he got up again and started to run, he asked me to give it a plug as I was in a good possition. Excitement over.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: 88MauSporter]
#126473 - 10/02/09 05:07 AM

With the .45/70- it all boils down to how much pressure will the gun handle for an everyday appetite.

As to modern-type loads - 34,000PSI will get you 2,000fps out of a 24" barrel with 400gr. bullets with only a couple powders, and 2,000fps to 2,100fps with 350's.
43,000PSI will get over 2,000fps with more powders, as well as run over 2,200fps with 350's and there are some excellent 350gr.'ers out there. What do you think you need? As 88 Mau. noted, a black powder load, placed in the right spot dumped a previously wounded buffalo. Smokeless powder loads with descent bullets, can pack a tremendous blow and take out big brown bears with ease.

Anyone who would shoot a buffalo with a 300gr. Factory .45/70 deer load should be whipped. - in my MOST humble opinion, of course.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: DarylS]
#126480 - 10/02/09 06:10 AM

As far as I know the only 45-70 DR availible it the Biaikial/Spartan.

Whilst some have had some sucess getting them to shoot, I think the most charitable would describe them as rough.

Personaly I would go for an entry level 9.3x74, my reasons are these:

It will be of more satisifying quality and fit.

The caliber is suitible for everything in N America and will do everything in Africa up to and including Buff if you wish.

It will keep it value better.

Heads are plentiful.

Brass is cheep.

Regards

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
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Loc: Alaska / Texas

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: Bramble]
#126494 - 10/02/09 08:32 AM

Bramble:
I am having an internal debate around going for a ruger No.1 in 9.3X74 or the one in .450/.400.
I know the 9.3X74 is more common and ammo would not be as much of an issue in some areas of the world (in case my own was seperated in route). What's your thoughts?
Not to detract from the .45-70 issue above. If I didn't have the "world travel and Hunt" bug so bad, I would be very happy with the .45-70.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Bramble
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Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: 88MauSporter]
#126500 - 10/02/09 10:32 AM

I would opt for the 450/400. Be aware though that the #1 is not heavy so it may be quite sharp in the recoil department.

Regards

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: oupa]
#126506 - 10/02/09 11:16 AM

I have 4 .45 caliber firearms - I like the grand ole 45!

What rifle are you considering?

A 45-70 double is mostly a waste of money unless it's a steal; the Ruger #1 is a bit light, the Marlin lever action is stupid light.

I highly recommend the .458 Winchester magnum. Any rifle you buy will have the proper weight and it can be loaded with about 3 dozen pet loads plus full throttle if you ever need to kill an elephant.

You can't go wrong with the .458 WM!

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Porter, Texas

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: bonanza]
#126527 - 10/02/09 01:24 PM

i have a spartan, its moa or better, and there's NO POINT in building one, as the spartan can be had, delivered, for 950 .. seriously, yeah, its a bit ugly.. mine shoots great, awesome, in fact. i am shooting 300 gr at 1900 or so.. no point in doing more..

scoped and shooting well.. triggers suck, but that's fix able

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: bonanza]
#126532 - 10/02/09 02:01 PM

Quote:

the Marlin lever action is stupid light.

I don't agree with this.

I think the Marlin is perfect for the .45-70 for loads in the mid-range of the cartridges potential. True, at 1800 fps + 400 grain bullet, the gun is a grim proposition, but I shoot a 402 grain cast Hollow Point at 1640 fps and that load is a sure killer on all critters I've shot with it.

As far as a double is concerned, for practicality, I agree with Bramble, a 9.3x74R is more practical.

But it isn't a .45-70. If you want one, get one. A double .45-70 even at factory velocities of 1200 for the 405 is a killer and at the standard 1800 fs with 300 grain bullet it is devastating on deer. It'll kill anything on this continent.

Want a .45-70? Then get one.

But please don't tell us you are planning to run a .450 Rigby chambering reamer in the gun and you are wondering about loads for 600 grain bullets...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: oupa]
#126537 - 10/02/09 02:28 PM

Quote:

Fact is this rifle will be more a fun gun than anything and most likely any hunting will be game far below even the 45-70 potential for killing.

It's a fun cartridge. You are right that components are cheap. If you want recoil, load it up. If not, load it down. The 400 grain Speer FN bullet does wonders on rabbits. And it will tear a deer wide open.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: oupa]
#126972 - 14/02/09 09:35 AM

Oupa,
I don't know what you guys out east hunt, but here in the midwest, the 45-70 will do a great job on anything I am going after. I built a lightweight double barrel 45-70 for deer hunting (eight pounds scoped with 26 inch barrels), and I use 300 grain hollowpoints in it at around 1600 FPS. It is more than enough for any hog or deer, and would handle one of our rouge Mountain Lions very handily. I could push this bullet faster, and I have a few times, but it is not necessary. I have also used 350 grain flatnosed bullets and they shoot to the same P.O.I. as do the 400 grain cast.
If you want to have a fun gun to hunt locally with, one that isn't going to wear you out carrying it, or pound you half to death shooting it, then you have the right idea. I think the 45-70 will give you the most bang for your bucks and you will enjoy shooting it as well. Some of us are never going to go to Africa to hunt but we do like to have two quick shots available when things don't go as planned with the first shot.
If my eyes were better, I would not put a scope on a double rifle, BUT, it is necessary at my time of life to have some visual aid if I am going to keep hunting efficiently. I would not feel comfortable hunting deer with any gun that I couldn't handle well enough to be almost sure of a one shot clean kill.
I too considered such bigger 45's as the 45-90 and the 45-110 and 120. They didn't offer me anything that the 45-70 couldn't do cheaper and lighter. With modern powders and a good stout double, you can work up loads that will exceed the old 45-90 loadings, so why bother and also spend more money when the added horsepower is not needed or used? These larger calibers were not meant to be Express calibers, they were meant to shoot heavier bullets than the 45-70 at about the same speed. You don't need the extra bullet weight, or the extra recoil, believe me. Bob H.

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REN3
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Reged: 30/04/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Colorado, USA

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: Birdhunter50]
#131968 - 10/04/09 11:15 AM

Bramble and everyone, please look at the Siace double rifles from Italy. Yes they chamber one in 45-70, and it is beautiful, shoots to point of regulation, and is about $7K in the US. Much more quality and beauty than all the Merkels that I looked at. Mine is a delight to carry at a little over 7 lbs, and yes it does kick a little, but at 10-11K feet above sea level recoil is just not that important. #350gr Hornady RN at 2,000fps is just so much fun to shoot!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: bonanza]
#131970 - 10/04/09 12:02 PM

Quote:

I have 4 .45 caliber firearms - I like the grand ole 45!

What rifle are you considering?

A 45-70 double is mostly a waste of money unless it's a steal; the Ruger #1 is a bit light, the Marlin lever action is stupid light.

I don't agree with the Marlin statement, either, 9.3. The 22" barrels have good weight and the short guide gun, with 400gr. at 2,000fps or a bit more, is completely controllable - especially for someone who can shoot a .458 Win Mag accurately. Actually, in comparrison, the .45/70 has moderate recoil. Reduce recoil easily by reducing bullet weight - 350gr.bullets kick less than 400's and the 300gr. Nosler will kick less and outpenetrate most all weights that will expand reliably from the .45/70 - except maybe 9.3's 402gr. HP. It matches most .375 bullets - even the Swift A-frames, but then, so does the 405gr. RP at factory velocities.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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crkennedy1
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Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 501
Loc: Utah

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: DarylS]
#131976 - 10/04/09 01:53 PM

I also have a Spartan in 45-70 (and 30-06). It is such a kick to own and shoot! If you look on Guns America, I'm sure you'll find one for under $1000.

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: crkennedy1]
#132290 - 14/04/09 05:19 PM

Do the Baikals/Spartans have verticle AND lateral adjustment of the barrels for regulation?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DuggaBoy
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Reged: 03/03/09
Posts: 106
Loc: Tx

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: NitroX]
#132357 - 15/04/09 11:58 AM

Have built stout 45/70 bolts on Siamese mausers (X 3), will kill anything with my loads.

Had a N0 3, ruger--painful, a No1 ruger, good gun.

Had a Trail Guns armory Kodiak 45/70 hammer gun, later bored to 45/90, then 45/120, great gun.

The Baikals are good at least the ones I've shot.

Or you can build one.

But, you can buy a great Chapuis 9.3X74 for $5 to $6K

--------------------
DuggaBoy
NRA-Life
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DSC

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: 45-70 quandry, let fly the comments [Re: oupa]
#132360 - 15/04/09 12:23 PM

Dumb idea IMO. Resale will be crap. Build yourself a 450 No. 2 and download it if you want.

Quote:

I'm well acquainted with the love/hate attitudes toward the 45-70. I'm planning a rifle though and while the more historic and or "correct" chamberings are all inviting my take is this.

I'm never going to shoot an elephant save the unlikely chance of winning the lotto, in which case I will be able to buy a "proper" double. Fact is this rifle will be more a fun gun than anything and most likely any hunting will be game far below even the 45-70 potential for killing. Open sights and me don't get along beyond fifty to seventy-five yards anyway so range isn't an issue. I've looked at the ballistics of the classic double rifle chamberings as well as the longer "American" 45's and I just don't feel the justification for my purposes is worth the considerable extra expense in components. 45-70 brass, dies, etc. are quite available and inexpensive compared to the more traditional dbl. rifle calibers. Am I missing something? Aside from nostalgia that is.

All comments pro and con are encouraged. I'm not particularly enthralled about the caliber but it does seem prudent to me.

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