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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels.
      #125953 - 06/02/09 05:35 AM

What is the collective opinion in using nitro for black loads in a double rifle with Damascus barrels.?

--------------------


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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: bonanza]
      #125956 - 06/02/09 06:05 AM

I'm doing it in my A. Henry.

I spoke personally with Graeme Wright at the Vintagers and asked the same question. He sees no problem, provided the rifle is in good sound condition.

FWIW,
Curl

P.S., Sherman Bell sure as heck does it. Read the DGJ.



Edited by CptCurl (06/02/09 06:08 AM)

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MacNaughton360
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Reged: 10/12/07
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Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: bonanza]
      #125958 - 06/02/09 06:09 AM

I would personally err on the side of caution and not do it.
You likely have a valuble gun, and also a valuble face, use black powder.
That's my two cent's worth.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
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Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: bonanza]
      #125959 - 06/02/09 06:13 AM

if the barrels look like you could fire black powder in them then go ahead and fire NfB in them as well.

best regards

peter

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DarylS
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Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: peter]
      #125961 - 06/02/09 06:40 AM

I concurr - nitro for black is totally suitable for good condition barrels, be the solid or Damascus. Never bothers me to shoot them.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: DarylS]
      #125981 - 06/02/09 01:10 PM

No sir,

not for me.

Regards

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: Bramble]
      #125982 - 06/02/09 01:41 PM

I do it in all my vintage damascus doubles without reservation.
The pressure is significantly less than with a regulating black-powder load, therefore it is far kinder to the gun to use N-for-B.
Not to mention the corrosion issue when hunting all day with BP loads in the humid tropics.

Remember that at the turn of the previous century, N-for-B loads were offered for almost all express calibres, and hunters at the time simply switched to smokeless without a second thought, for the obvious advantages of no smoke, and no (less) corrosion. Whether they appreciated it or not, they also got more foot-pounds for less pressure. They certainly didn't send their damascus doubles off 'somewhere' to be tested or assessed, they just got stuck into it.

...and that was with cordite! Todays powders are far, far milder, consistent, and cooler-burning than those early smokeless propellants.


Shotguns are a different matter of course. It can be done, but it is much more difficult to produce smokeless shotshells with consistently lower pressure than BP.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: Marrakai]
      #125985 - 06/02/09 02:01 PM

Aye, mate.

You guys who trust not your damascus guns and rifles, please just wrap them well in bubble wrap, box them, and send them to me. I will see to it that they receive the respect due them.

By some accounts the high quality damascus of 1880-1900 was stronger than the fluid steel of the same period. Of course, fluid steel won out in the end, both in strength and in cost. Nevertheless, I would not shun fine damascus and at the same time run out and shoot NFB loads in 1890 vintage fluid steel.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: CptCurl]
      #126108 - 07/02/09 01:54 PM

Sherman Bell did considerable testing on NFB vs. BP loads and his test, most of which relied on strain gauges, but some of which relied piezo transducers, iirc, proved out that NFB loads produced less peak stress. Also iirc, choice of primer was important, with too hot of a primer causing a less than critical, less than BP peak, but notable spike in the early phase of ignition. You can read his results since he published them in an article in Double Gun Journal.

On damascus barrels, he tested to failure a whole bunch of damascus guns and some early and later fluid steel barrels. These were all shotguns, iirc, and the damascus generally faired better than the fluid steel. Often, the action was giving away and ribs seperated while the barrels hung in there, some bulging. Some of the guns' actions or barrles were in pretty poor shape to begin with, and none was pristine (as you might imagine for a test to failure project), and he was using modern SAAMI proof matching loads. When he could, he continued shooting til a bearrel blew, some did, but other times the action failed first. You can also read of these tests and results in Double Guns Journal.

Prior to reading his test, I figured that if the barrels of a shotgun or rifle looked alright and checked out all right for proof dimensions, etc, with a good gunsmith, I'd try them with a lanyard and NFB. After reading his tests, I'd use them without hesitation if the passed, say, JJ's inspection, just the same as vintage fluid steel barrels.

JPK

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1980E26
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Reged: 03/05/05
Posts: 195
Loc: USA
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: JPK]
      #126111 - 07/02/09 03:16 PM


I shoot NFB in my damascus A. Henry and no issues what so ever. Most of the damascus barrels are very high quality. Modern powder = no smoke screens to warn neighboring tribes. Just dont go overboard with the percentages. I have loaded up to 46% of the BP charge with smokless and no issues. My rifle regulates best between 38-42%.

Im with Curl. Anyone wanting to ditch their damascus doubles let us know and we will find a good home for them!

BR

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450_EXPRESS
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Reged: 04/01/09
Posts: 349
Loc: S.C.Montana
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: JPK]
      #126214 - 08/02/09 08:52 AM

Which issue of the Double Gun Journal was the article in? The year, vol is# ? Thank you.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: 450_EXPRESS]
      #126230 - 08/02/09 12:00 PM

450 Express,

The results of the two test were each published in a series of articles. Circa about four or five years ago. BTW, he tried some duplex loads too. IIRC, they were no issue, but no advantage.

I will try to find a couple of copies of the Double Gun Journal that have at least a portion of each series, but hopes are dim because I've moved since then and I'm still looking for and not finding stuff.

I would suggest shooting DGJ an email or calling them. They ought to know and may have the back issues for sale.

There is also an article or perhaps a series of articles focused on Sherman Bell's development and testing of loads for his 450 Express. IIRC, he ended up with hardened cast lead bullets, maybe paper patched. He used his rifle and load to kill a water buff or two in Australia.

Maybe a google search on Sherman Bell too?

JPK

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bpesteve
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up
Re: NFB loads in a Damascus rifle barrels. [Re: bonanza]
      #126319 - 09/02/09 03:32 AM

Of course, there's Damascus and then there's Damascus. With shotguns there are Damascus barrel guns (as well as a bunch of fluid steel guns) I wouldn't shoot on a bet. There are also several in my closet that I shoot all the time with both black and low pressure smokeless with no worries whatsoever.

The Damascus rifles I have had have all been of decent quality and in decent shape. Mostly they get fed BP 'cause I like the mess, but I don't hesitate to feed them N-f-B smokeless loads except for the noxious chemicals needed to clean that nitro stuff out of the barrels afterwards.

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