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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth
#124873 - 22/01/09 10:20 PM

Who makes these for a good price? working gun, nothing fancy.

Want something big to go with my Rigby 500 bpe!

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rigbymauser
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: empirevr]
#124900 - 23/01/09 03:07 AM

Quote:

Who makes these for a good price? working gun, nothing fancy.

Want something big to go with my Rigby 500 bpe!

Depens ofcouse how much money you have, those calibers never comes cheap..

Arthur Smith from Colchester, does what you want,,,but he hasn`t picked up his phone for 4 months now, so you may have to go up there in person to knock on his door.
I was overthere in june with Bramble. WE saw some barrelblanks for 4 bore...HEAVY HEAVY.
If I recall correct,a 4 bore projects ends up in the £30-40k.

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bigdog
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: rigbymauser]
#124935 - 23/01/09 12:33 PM

Steve Zihn can make you any size black powder gun all the way up through 2 bore. Very good and very reasonable in prices.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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DarylS
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: bigdog]
#124995 - 24/01/09 04:39 AM

bigdog - I think empirevr is looking for a ctg. gun, not a muzzleloader.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: empirevr]
#124996 - 24/01/09 05:13 AM

Quote:

Who makes these for a good price? working gun, nothing fancy.

A lot of the 4's were working guns, find one fancy and add another 40k!

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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bigdog
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: gatsby]
#125089 - 25/01/09 03:06 PM

Daryl, I was not sure if he was looking for a cartridge gun or black powder. Just providing info in case he wants a bl.pdr. gun. I had a really good experience with Steve building my 2 bore over the last year and 1/2. Sorry it was not much help. Only 2 bore cartridge gun I know of being worked on is by Macjific.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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szihn
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: bigdog]
#125103 - 25/01/09 05:26 PM

Thanks for the nice words Bigdog.
So..........
You are still alive. Does that mean the gun is not deadly in it's recoil, or does it mean you have not fired it yet?

Steve

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DarylS
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: szihn]
#125145 - 26/01/09 06:18 AM

Well - where's the targets fro the 2 bore, bigdog- been shooting it much - I's guess you won't be using Swiss or Scheutzen powder in it unless you are independently wealthy & stinking rich! A pound won't go far at 3 to 4 ounces per shot-

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: DarylS]
#125191 - 27/01/09 04:39 AM

Hi Daryl and all

Yep, cartridge gun.

Ball and shot in mind.

Found an 8ga shotgun double, looks promising.

Thanks

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: empirevr]
#125200 - 27/01/09 08:20 AM

Ben - Cutting it back to 22" tubes for RB? BTW - Lt. James Forsyth says to shoot well with both shot and ball, the barrels need to be 30" - but for a ball gun only, they do well with 22" barrels. Seems for him, the bigger the bore, the shorter he liked the barrels. He was talking about muzzleloaders, but the same rules apply. The longer barrels are needed for the shot.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: DarylS]
#125237 - 28/01/09 02:42 AM

Hello

Its a modern Spaniard with 32" barrels. 3.25 chamber. Made by Gunmark.

I thought the Spanish shotguns were tested to very high pressures.....or was that Italian shotguns? Cant remember.

22" is a tad short...surely 26" is fine?

What sort of loads could be used in it with ball?-I dont want ball only...

Thanks

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: empirevr]
#125238 - 28/01/09 03:37 AM

Having 32" choked barrels, I'd shorten them to 28" to get rid of the chokes. Better yet would be finding a barrel maker who could rifle the chokes, would turn it into an 8 bore paradox. Something on the order of 60" to 80" of twist would be about right for round balls and would still give strong Imp Cylinder patterns with shot. Something to think about.

You could shorten the tubes to just after the choke started, leaving about .010" constriction. That would shoot well with shot and still allow an .800" round ball (about 775gr. in pure lead) held in a hollowed wad for centering. I'd start around 150gr. 2F black powder and go from there. Probably run upwards of 273gr. for a 'good' 10 dram load with round ball, but 8 drams (218gr.) is probably about the limit for recoil - maybe even less than that.

If the chokes were rifled, you could play with explosive 'shells' if that's allowed where you play. With those, powder charges are very much reduced to the 2 to 3 dram level, yet the effects on tigers are real history that has been documented - great reading! I did some work with explosive shells (bullets) in a 24 bore, which is too small for real 'work', but that is another story.

This post keeps to the flavour of the title & presents some thoughts that could be explored. I've wanted to find someone who could rifle both chokes or just one choke of a doublegun for me, for some time. What a GREAT gun that would be - kind of like Seyfried's 12 bore H&H Paradox.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_366
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: empirevr]
#125245 - 28/01/09 06:01 AM

Quote:

Hello

Its a modern Spaniard with 32" barrels. 3.25 chamber. Made by Gunmark.

I thought the Spanish shotguns were tested to very high pressures.....or was that Italian shotguns? Cant remember.

22" is a tad short...surely 26" is fine?

What sort of loads could be used in it with ball?-I dont want ball only...

Thanks

Ben

Is it a true 8-bore or one of those drilled out 10-bore?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Marrakai
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: 450_366]
#125277 - 28/01/09 02:11 PM

Daryl:
In my experience very few mid-to-modern SxS shotguns have a choke anywhere near suitable for rifling to make a paradox. Most are way too short in the 'parallel-constricted' bit. I've been looking!

Some of the latest steel-shot chokes may be better, but not easy finding one with fixed chokes the same in both barrels, or with barrels that aren't chrome-lined.

Good in theory, but fails in practice.

BTW, the Rem-choke rifled chokes are probably still available, stainless steel with concave grooves, but in an 870 single they don't work as well as they should because the start of the leade is recessed about 10 thou, so in effect the rifling is a bit recessed too, so not as aggressive as it should be. I bought a pair of these years ago, as a back-up option for my Paradox aspirations, but haven't been comfortable fitting them to anything yet.
Cation and Hastings (and others?) also make rifled chokes, but they protrude and would be unsuitable for a SxS double.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bigdog
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: Marrakai]
#125362 - 29/01/09 04:34 PM

Steve, actually, I have to say that I have not fired it yet. I got really busy with work, weekends too, and then all the cold, snow and ice. I will probably wait until beginning of March when it is a little warmer. I know, I know a real pussbag, but I want to take an afternoon and try and develop some loads. So... I would like a little warmer weather.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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DarylS
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: bigdog]
#125385 - 30/01/09 01:59 AM

Marrakai - thanks for the note about about the chokes and rifling. Yes - it was a good idea. The old AYA 10 bore double I had years ago, had end-chokes about 1 1/4" long. It would have worked. with a brake-sylinder hone and copious amounts of counting pellets in and out, I got it to put 96% & 94% of a 2oz. #5 load into 40" at 40 yards.- same with #2's. It was deadly on ducks, but they'd sink

when they hit the water

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: DarylS]
#125387 - 30/01/09 03:06 AM

I think one day I will try to get a 10bore Zabala, and have a set of 12bore chupperlums riflebarrels regulated to it. I believe a 12bore rifle in modern steel could easely do a 750-800 grain leadslug @ 1700 fT/sec or even more

.
A project like that could be kept around the $7K....I think

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jaz
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: rigbymauser]
#125433 - 30/01/09 01:32 PM

In my experience I have found 10 and 8 bore ball and shot guns are built much different than a conventional shotgun. Rifling them is a bad idea. Pressure builds with lands and grooves. An 8 bore shotgun weighs 10 to 11 lbs, a Ball or jungle gun, smooth bore, weighs about 13, a Paradox 15 and a fully rifled 16 to 17. Yes, the charge determines a bunch and these figures are +/-. but the point is the difference is usually in the barrel weight. Be careful!!

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Marrakai
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: jaz]
#125436 - 30/01/09 02:08 PM

rigbymauser:
You may not believe this, but the Greener 'Empire' 12-bore has a wider and heavier standing-breech than the 10-bore Zabala.
Those Zabala shotguns get their extra overall weight from a billet of steel in the butt-stock (at least, the ones sold in Australia a few years ago did!). One would assume they are equally strong (or stronger?) though, because of modern steels.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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rigbymauser
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: Marrakai]
#125458 - 31/01/09 01:15 AM

Quote:

rigbymauser:
You may not believe this, but the Greener 'Empire' 12-bore has a wider and heavier standing-breech than the 10-bore Zabala.
Those Zabala shotguns get their extra overall weight from a billet of steel in the butt-stock (at least, the ones sold in Australia a few years ago did!). One would assume they are equally strong (or stronger?) though, because of modern steels.

THanks Marrakai

Gold Info

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DarylS
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: rigbymauser]
#125462 - 31/01/09 01:41 AM

Many of the paradox gun, such as the Holland & Holland 12 bore tested by Ross Seyfreid, shot fairly light, shot-type charges of black powder to achieve velcoities in the 1,000fps range with the paradox bullets. The guns were light, not heavy and were not intended for, nor regulated or designed for heavy charges.

If you want to make them into magnum guns such as propelling 800gr. bullets at 1,700fps, them they'd better be heavy guns designed for such heavy loads.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 4 or 8-bore paradox/smooth [Re: DarylS]
#125615 - 02/02/09 12:49 AM

Thanks for all the golden info....

Yes its an 8ga, its a gunmark kestrel...........but im sure they were only sold in the UK.

Its 11lbs-not heavy, but not bad considering the barrels are just 32" rather than 36" etc.

Another I came upon is a 2 barrel set, single barrel Davenport.....with the usual 36" barrel AND a short extra thick 24" barrel. This latter barrel is a factory original....I can only guess it was a ball barrel. Its $3,500 odd........the double is a $1000 and I feel its more like what I want. a sort of do-it-all gun without a horrendous price.

Ben

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