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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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mikez_4_bore
.224 member


Reged: 28/12/08
Posts: 3
Loc: eastern usa
Laser to regulate ?
      #124459 - 19/01/09 04:25 AM

Just a question of interest if your using a cartridge that has a flat trajectory could you use a a bore laser or a laser level to regulate the barrels,this is probably a dumb question but just wondering.

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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Laser to regulate ? [Re: mikez_4_bore]
      #124466 - 19/01/09 06:08 AM

Quote:

Just a question of interest if your using a cartridge that has a flat trajectory could you use a a bore laser or a laser level to regulate the barrels,this is probably a dumb question but just wondering.



No, but if you put two it in the mussles it would tell you how much the barrels cross, if this gives any real useful info, i dont know.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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André
.333 member


Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: Laser to regulate ? [Re: 450_366]
      #124521 - 19/01/09 08:53 PM

If it were that simple, all contemporary double rifles, cheap and expensive alike, would shoot in the same hole with both barrels.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Laser to regulate ? [Re: André]
      #124526 - 19/01/09 11:32 PM


You can use a laser with good effect during the manufacturing process and afterwards to align your open sights or scope to the general point of impact of the bullet and probably at least get the bullets properly on the target at 100 yards, but the laser will not account for the barrel harmonics of the projectile traveling down it's length and for the way that the barrel will release that bullet at the muzzle. The latter can only come from actual testing while the barrels are being stressed by the passing projectile.

If I were building a rifle, I would most certainly use a laser to make the adjustments necessary to ensure that the bores are aligned exactly with the axis of the sighting plane.

Double rifles are built to a specific bullet weight and velocity and, providing the customer uses that same load, will generally get the same results. Double rifles generally are not conducive to customer alterations after being built.

Bolt action rifles are built to exact tolerances as well, the good ones are anyway, and it's left to the customer to determine which load works best with the rifle's dynamics and chosen optics. There are, however, bolt rifles built to a specific load, but the maker is simply doing the job typically left to the consumer. Bolt actions can more easily be altered by the customer after being built.

In general, both work well, but regulating the double rifle requires more man hours and, consequently, demands a higher price.

I wouldn't be surprised if the best makers use a laser to make the initial adjustments to the barrels and use them to fine tune during the process.


In either case, point of impact will still vary based on altitude, temperature, barrel heat, the point at which you place your rest, etc.....

--------------------

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1445
Loc: Alaska
Re: Laser to regulate ? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #124548 - 20/01/09 03:19 AM

I bought a laser for my 338 bolt gun. I indexed it so that I put it in the same way every time because if you didn't it would be all over the place. POA could be as much as 6" off just by where the index mark was pointing. I sold it as useless.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Laser to regulate ? [Re: mikez_4_bore]
      #125231 - 28/01/09 12:12 AM

There are too many cause and effect relationships going on when a double rifle is fired and regulated to use lasers to measure or indicate when both will converge. For one thing, the intensity or the loads can vary enough to throw the whole thing off, plus the gun rotates as it is fired meaning that the barrels won't be pointing where they were before firing. I turned down two laser pointers to fit into the muzzles of a 45 caliber rifle, thinking that that would put both barrels onto the same P.O.I., but it didn't even come close to working. The best they can be used for is to keep them on the same plane when fitting and soldering and you can use spacers or shims just as well and not have the hassle of messing with lasers. If you think about it, regulation is the act of making two barrels hit roughly to the same imaginary spot when they are fired. Neither barrel is pointed at that spot before firing. Any laser device used must be put into the muzzles of the barrels because the barrels are actually sprung or bent when they are finally finished. No laser put into the chambers is going to do any good at all. Bob H.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Laser to regulate ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #125845 - 05/02/09 04:01 AM

Each barrel's line of sight with the rifle at rest, as in a vice, with the sights lined up on an aiming point at any given distance will not be pointing to the same place, nor will it be pointing at where the sights are pointing!

Thinking that is the problem with most trying to regulate a double rifle during a build, or working up a load to shoot to the regulation that is already built into the rifle!

To see this for yourself take the barrel set from a double rifle that is known to be regulated properly. Place the lumps in a padded vice, and support the forward end of the barrel set so that the sights are aligned on an aiming point at the distance engraved on the standing rear sight. Most big bores will be 50 Mtrs most small bores will be 100 mtrs. Now take two empty cases, with the primers removed, and place them in the chambers. Look through the primer holes in each case and see where that barrel is pointing on the target in relation to the aiming point, and with the other barrel. I believe when you do this a light will come on in you mind!

With the sights being held in line with an aiming point on a target, no matter the distance, the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point the is LOW, and in the LEFT of the point of aim. the LEFT barrel will be looking at a point that is LOW and on the RIGHT of point of aim on the target.

This is necessary because when the barrels are fired with the sights lined up on the target, the recoil will move the barrel being fired UP and AWAY from the other barrel, before the bullets exits the muzzle. This is called barrel time. So the barrel is not where it was when the trigger was pulled, and because of barrel time, the barrel is at a place that is at the right elevation, and pointed at a point just BESIDE the point of aim, on it's OWN SIDE of the aiming point on the target. The barrels have to be physically converged, with the line of sight crossing, so that the barrel will be shooting SIDE BY SIDE when they get to the target. Contrary to popular belief, a properly regulated double rifle shoots its barrels parallel, and the CENTER of each barrel's individual group never crosses at any range.

The only thing the Laser will give you is a starting point to begin regulating the barrel set when building a double rifle, but you have to have an educated guess at a starting point, and you never want to make a double rifle shoot in the same hole with both barrels. If you do the barrels are crossing, and the will get steadily wider as they go down range. This is not correct, the barrels should shoot side by side, close or down range!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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