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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Double Rifle Frame Size
      #12188 - 22/03/04 10:32 PM

Ok guys I'm after some dimensions regarding the depth of side by side double rifle action frames.
What I need is a measurement of the maximum depth from top to bottom of the frame on SxS actions in the 400 to 500 Nitro caliber double rifles of any make.
Measure from the bottom plate on the underside of the action to the highest part of the frame which is often near the region of the third fastener.

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help out here.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
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Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 4seventy]
      #12405 - 25/03/04 08:33 AM

What, no replies! Is the question too hard!!?

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 4seventy]
      #12415 - 25/03/04 12:30 PM

inches or centimeters?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 4seventy]
      #12435 - 25/03/04 05:25 PM

When I have the safe open I will try to remember to measure.

A 20 gauge shotgun frame is the smallest anyone gets away with for a .470 but sometimes even then they can run into trouble.

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docEE
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Reged: 06/11/03
Posts: 28
Loc: Minnesota, USA
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 500grains]
      #12499 - 26/03/04 12:23 PM

Took out my Searcy field grade 470 NE. The WIDTH of the action below the barrels is 1.828" and at the level of the barrels is 2.248". The height from top to underside is 2.190". (I could be off a few thousandths!)

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 500grains]
      #12503 - 26/03/04 01:13 PM

...would you happen to know whether the california rigby boxlock double rifles are made on merkel 20 gauge actions?...i believe beretta uses 12 gauge sidelock actions (so-series ou's, and brand new diana-series sidelock ss') on its sso6 ou's and 455 ss'...

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #12512 - 26/03/04 02:32 PM

Both the Rigby (California) boxlock and the Merkel are made on Merkel 20 gauge shotgun frames. There have been some reports of the Merkels going off face, but that may be related to chambering them in the relatively high pressure (for a double) 416 Rigby.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: docEE]
      #12562 - 27/03/04 08:21 AM

docEE,
Thanks, just what I was after.
Mick, inches/metric or whatever you like and it only needs to be approxomite measurement and doesn't need to be super precise.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 500grains]
      #12581 - 27/03/04 11:22 AM

Are the Merkels built on 20 gauge shotgun actions or are the 20 gauge shotguns built on Double Rifle actions?

All classes of cartridges should be built on an action appropriate to their size. One size does not fit all if you want a nicely balanced rifle. A 375 built on the same size action as a 470 results in either a big clubby 375 or a 470 on too light a frame.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 4seventy]
      #12657 - 28/03/04 06:13 AM

Alan here you go.

Caliber.........Maker......Action.....A.........B...........C..........D...........E..........F

577 3".........MarcelThys....BL...0.892...2.231...2.675...1.471...2.331...1.174
577 2 3/4....Hollis.............BL...1.091...2.521...2.853...1.752...2.351...1.125
470............J.Wilkes..........BL...0.942...2.299...2.493...1.861...2.392...1.062
470/360#2.....J.Wilkes.....BL...1.091...2.182...2.601...1.761...2.125...0.942
500/465.........H&H...........SL...0.856...2.082...2.442...1.615...2.095...0.095
450 3 1/4......WR..............BL...0.921...2.248...2.266...1.822...2.146...0.949
400 3 1/4.......AH..............BL...0.911...2.246...2.523...1.618...2.135...1.043
400 3".......Jeffery.............BL...1.083...2.365...2.524...1.811...2.286...1.052
369...........Purdey.............SL...1.042...2.121...2.479...1.725...2.042...0.918
9.3x74R.....Francotte........BL...0.844...1.951...2.245...1.501...1.985...0.916
303..........Watson.........BASL...0.874...1.982...2.329...1.471...1.905...0.916



A. height of action at pin
B. height of action from bottom to top of face.
C. length of action at water table
D. width of action at pin
E. width of face
F. spacing of firing pins





--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Edited by mickey (29/03/04 02:04 PM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: mickey]
      #12740 - 29/03/04 07:33 AM

Mick,
thankyou thankyou thankyou!!

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 4seventy]
      #92001 - 19/12/07 09:22 AM

Alan

What did you ever do with this information?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: mickey]
      #92005 - 19/12/07 12:08 PM

Quote:

Are the Merkels built on 20 gauge shotgun actions or are the 20 gauge shotguns built on Double Rifle actions?



Mick, you are on to the facts here! The actions used in building Merkel side by side double rifles are heat-treated for use with double rifles, and are pleanty strong for that purpose! The actions are two sizes, the 20 ga size, is used for the 375 H&H, the 416 Rigby, 470NE, and the 500NE! That one is also used for the smaller rounds as well in the model 140-1 from the 9.3X74R down! The 28 ga size is used in the new 141-1 for the 9.3X74R down. These are 20 ga, and 28 ga SIZE only, and are rifle actions. The S/S shotguns are made on these same rifle actions. The reasoning for this is simple, by doing this there is no need to make different action for rifle, and shotgun, requireing different heat-treating, and so both are machined the same for the CNC. A simple cost cutting move, with no down side, IMO!


Quote:

All classes of cartridges should be built on an action appropriate to their size. One size does not fit all if you want a nicely balanced rifle. A 375 built on the same size action as a 470 results in either a big clubby 375 or a 470 on too light a frame.



Again, IMO, as long as you keep the 1/3 weight in the middle between the hands, it makes no difference what action you use as long as it is strong enough for the cartridge chambered in it, as longas the proper weight distribution is maintained between the hands. The weight can be adjusted for the 375, in the same as the 470NE action by simply makeing the barrels for the 375 slimmer. Where Merkel has bombed is with the 500NE, by not makeing the barrel walls a little thicker, to take back the steel lost by boreing a larger hole for the 500NE.

I know lots of people who own and have shot the heck out of every chambering that Merkel chambers, and I have not heard of even one Merkel coming off face. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, because it may have, but I'd bet my next retirement check, it was caused by someone overloading one of the 375H&H, or 416 Rigbys, and/or improper care. Still, I doubt it is anything but internet legend, started by someone who couldn't compete with Merkel's price point!

..............All just my opinion, however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #92028 - 19/12/07 02:23 PM

Mac-- great info!!

Thank you!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: mickey]
      #92076 - 19/12/07 08:57 PM

Mick,
I had a project on the drawing board back then, but for a number of reasons didn't go ahead with it.
I haven't totally dismissed the idea though.
One day maybe.

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ArnoldB
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Reged: 23/07/04
Posts: 139
Loc: Uk
Re: Double Rifle Frame Size [Re: 4seventy]
      #92103 - 20/12/07 05:22 AM

If a Merkel is considered weak, what do the same people make off a Westley Richards droplock double rifle. If you have never seen one or taken the locks out, there ain't alot off material in it.
Last one I saw was in .577 and afaik they never had any problems with them and the watertable is quite short to.

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