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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: tinker]
      #120429 - 06/12/08 03:28 AM

Edit by Curl:

CURL'S CAUSITC OPINIONS DELETED AS NOT NICE.

Guess I ought to keep my caustic opinions to myself and my cat Bob. My apologies to whoever did the sleeve job and colors.

Curl

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/08 03:38 AM)

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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120439 - 06/12/08 04:05 AM

Bramble, Tinker, All,

I understand that barrels are not hardened, though they may be made of hard steel. Or, putting it another way, the barrels are not subject to a hardening process either before or after they are finished. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect?

Also, I am an executive of a company that welds, repairs, assembles, etc valving and piping in high pressure systems, mostly steam systems, from 1/2" through 36" and even larger, and at pressures of upward of 60,000psi. The systems run at various loads from long term full pressures to lower pressures to no pressure. Most systems are subject to anything from mild to intense vibration. I do know that rapid spikes, like a shotgun or rifle barrel would be subject to are to be avoided. Personally I don't know squat about the technical requirements of the welding, I got out of the hands on side of the business decades ago after a very short apprenticeship, but I'll ask some of our craftsmen, who are required to be certified by various testing agencies, about what is required to make the welds viable for the high pressures and able to stand the high vibration environments, which seems to me to be related to hardening and brittleness.

If I learn anything useful, I'll report back.

JPK

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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120443 - 06/12/08 04:35 AM

JPK

You are correct that barrels are not hardened subsiquent to manufacture, however the steel from which they are made is machined in its hardened and tempered state.

CrMo at 30 ish Rc is reasonably machineable, thus it does not need to be annealed prior to machineing. So it combines the properties of hardness and toughness that make it ideal for firearms and ease of production.


Your guys will work these materials routinely in high pressure pipeline systems as it is an industry standard in the oil pipe and fittings field. (there are also some more exotics now in the CrMo range with specific propities but they are not so common im firearms). I will be most please to hear what they have to say as nobody can ever have enough knowledge.
I am about to send a 470NE shoe lump set to a firm that specialises in lazer brazing as they promise that they can use a high melt spelter without changing the core toughness/hardness of the 4140 from which it is made, thus giving me more joint strength without recourse to vaccum brazing. They are going to perform hardness tests after assembly. Do I have the answer to that one ? Well what I know of lazers I learnt from William Shatner , but I do wait with anticipation.

Please do not think that anything written here is intended as a critic of you or anyone else, it is rather that unless these things are discussed fully, there is always a posibility of somebody just believing that they can buy a TIG set on e-bay and modify their own guns, based on what they have seen written here.

Regards

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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120444 - 06/12/08 04:37 AM

Quote:

Edit by Curl:

CURL'S CAUSITC OPINIONS DELETED AS NOT NICE.

Guess I ought to keep my caustic opinions to myself and my cat Bob. My apologies to whoever did the sleeve job and colors.

Curl





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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120454 - 06/12/08 06:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Edit by Curl:

CURL'S CAUSITC OPINIONS DELETED AS NOT NICE.

Guess I ought to keep my caustic opinions to myself and my cat Bob. My apologies to whoever did the sleeve job and colors.

Curl







Here's my cat Bob. He's a good listener, and he keeps secrets.
He's not opinionated about double rifles.





Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120455 - 06/12/08 06:31 AM

I will second Bramble's notes of caution to whomever may end up viewing this thread in the future.
One's ability to possess a TIG welding machine, and to puddle a bit of parent material with it's arc does not so simply qualify them to assess the possibility or feasibility of a weldment.
I have seen numerous 'expert demonstrations' of TIG welding in recent on-line video format which were ultimate hack-jobs, and can imagine that there is a much greater mis-understanding of the process than I would guess.

There is much to consider around such things, especially when such things are to eventually be parked near the temples of a hunter and run time and again on into the generations.

Always err to the side of caution, and with respect to the nature of the materials.

Again, to refer to the WR seen at the top of this thread - to take it as an example for the original proposition instead of some H&H -- I'd take a modern-built WR drop lock rifle made of modern materials before I'd take it -- in a hot second.

Chances are that if I were to order one, I'd order it in a similar configuration (save for the sleeve-job), shoe lumps and all!
And again, that is if the old and new were served to me on a plate, the choice of the two being mine as gift...





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bigdog
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120465 - 06/12/08 09:25 AM

My preference of old vs. new is to have BOTH !!!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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philbert
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: bigdog]
      #120671 - 09/12/08 01:29 AM

Make mine a jones underlever hammer gun please!

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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: philbert]
      #120673 - 09/12/08 02:23 AM

Quote:

Make mine a jones underlever hammer gun please!



Philbert,

You are a new member here, and I don't know if you've come to realize yet that you have, regarding your preference for Jones underlever actioned, hammer double rifles, some serious company. If your preference also runs to blackpowder express cartridges, wow, its almost like a cult!

When it comes to the express rifles, I hope to find a great condition top lever, rebounding hammer, damascus barreled 450 Express double. But a good Jones underlever sure would be nice too.

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120691 - 09/12/08 07:56 AM

JPK,

When it comes to black powder hammer express rifles, top levers and bar action locks are for sissies!

The Jones lever with beautiful back action locks is the classic to my eye.

I think this is the more elegant style:



And that this is not quite as elegant (please excuse the fact it is a shotty):



All in my humble opinion, of course!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120699 - 09/12/08 11:09 AM

I should have been more clear! My desire runs to the back action, or island locks too, but with a top lever. And 450 Express 3 1/4".

I would also drool over a shotgun so fitted. And with ejectors. I recall seing a photo of a trio of Purdeys, owned once upon a time by Lord Ripon, perhaps the finest game shot of all time; beyond beautiful! Long 30" barrels, fantastic wood, excellent leather pads, top levers, back action island locks and ejectors. All still in fabulous shape, with no wear visible, IIRC all original. The Holy Grail. There was an accompanying photo showing six dead pheasants, all still in the air!

Beautiful guns you pictured. Your? What are they?

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120711 - 09/12/08 01:34 PM

Oh, Island locks! How I love them too!



Sorry, no top lever.

The two in the post above are (top) a best quality 12b Thomas Horsley double rifle I used to own; and (bottom) a 10b Charles Daly (Lindner) shotgun I currently own.

Hammers rock!




Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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kamilaroi
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120716 - 09/12/08 02:21 PM

As some above I am a fan of back action side locks. Have a Frederick T Baker (sleeved) nitro proved 12 bore best quality gun (cased). I think Crudgington did a short bio. If you don't know Baker fought the "battle of the ejectors" with WR and won, though the legal costs sent him under. Mine is what I presume a wholly built piece after that matter. Pity he did not rebuild the business as the quality is something else!

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gatsby
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120717 - 09/12/08 02:36 PM

Top lever, hammergun, island locks; W.W.Greener




--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: gatsby]
      #120723 - 09/12/08 03:46 PM

Gatsby,

Tell us more, and more photos please!

Looks like a real gem.

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120745 - 09/12/08 11:34 PM

Yes Gatsby, more!

A beauty.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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gatsby
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120808 - 10/12/08 01:53 PM

A true smoothbore ballgun by factory letter. Redone, but nicely by WR, I did not think I would find another in original or any condition. An unexpected surgery has preempted range time with her but it will be fun.





--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: gatsby]
      #120848 - 11/12/08 01:36 AM

...jones under Lever, back action hammer rifle....

I am beginninmg to like this thread here.

I wonder how much a gunsmith would make for a new made action of the above mentioned for a 8 or 4 bore??. I guess the hammers could be found/taken from a salvaged gun.

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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #120860 - 11/12/08 03:19 AM

Quote:

...jones under Lever, back action hammer rifle....

I am beginninmg to like this thread here.

I wonder how much a gunsmith would make for a new made action of the above mentioned for a 8 or 4 bore??. I guess the hammers could be found/taken from a salvaged gun.



You know a man that can Jens, and he just happens to have 40 pairs of recovered hammer locks in stock...but if you have to ask how much

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rigbymauser
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120945 - 12/12/08 02:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...jones under Lever, back action hammer rifle....

I am beginninmg to like this thread here.

I wonder how much a gunsmith would make for a new made action of the above mentioned for a 8 or 4 bore??. I guess the hammers could be found/taken from a salvaged gun.



You know a man that can Jens, and he just happens to have 40 pairs of recovered hammer locks in stock...but if you have to ask how much



Oh yes...If I can ever get a hold of him ...he seems to have left england for many months now, gone to distand lands...hahahaa

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doubleriflenut
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120984 - 12/12/08 09:07 AM

Amen! They also reduce the value considerably as well. It is getting more difficult to find an "honest" gun these days.

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nopride2
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #121881 - 22/12/08 12:42 PM

I prefer Jones underlever hammer guns. Have a 450-3 1/4" and a 577 2 3/4".

A 4140 rifle barrel at 30-32 rockwell has been hardend and tempered. Consulting my Ryerson alloy steel reference book,I find the following 4140 information.
1 inch diameter bar.
Quench 1500 to 1550 F.
Temper 1000 F. 37 RC
Temper 1200 F. 27 Rc

Dave

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