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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Dave3220
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Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
"Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions....
      #118826 - 14/11/08 03:56 AM

I've been interested in Paradox-Bored guns for many years and the opportunity to have some made on relatively cheap but serviceable NEFs arose, and since I am not getting any younger, I went for it.....
www.deltagunshop.com in Coleville, Washington state did the re-boring work, and have been doing work for Hamilton Bowen as well.
First I had an NEF .44 magnum back-bored leaving an inch and a half of .431 diameter rifling at the muzzle and a nominally .452 smoothbore back to the new chamber cut for .45 Colt/.410.
Accurascy with a lead bullet factory loads, or handloads using Hodgdon's Triple Seven powder and an altered LEE .45 Minie bullet mold (altered to flat-base) of 300+ gr. weight shot well and consistantly. (Minute-of-paper-plate @ 100 yds. offhand :-)
Since blackpowder .45-90-300 ballistics were nearly identical, I figure the handload would be a deer/blackbear killer at ironsight ranges.
Shotloads were not so good...I think more due to the limitations of .410 and tiny ammount of shot than any "flaw" in the gunwork.
Both the NEF and T/C pistol barrels I have had done patterned aprox impr.cyl., and had a sure kill range on smallgame of 20 yds. or a pace or two further...
The 1/3 oz. CCI .45 Colt shotloads, or duplicate handloads appear to be "good" for about 12 to 15 yds. Quieter and very useful in thick cover & close ranges...)

I have since bought the tooling to have a 16ga. done on a rifled NEF heavy barrel 20 ga.
The re-bored gun patterns 7/8 oz loads more evenly than 1 oz. ones thus far, in what I'de say was impr.cyl. or mebbe even a "loose" modified pattern, which is very encouraging.
The NEF gun I chose to modify was a "Youth" model, with 22" barrel and 13" LOP.
It has a scope base and high comb stock that I will leave on while working up ball & bullet loads, and then plan to remove (hoping that the drilled holes don't weaken the breech area liek postage stamp "perforations" ).
Final plans for sights will be Ashley Express white bead front and shallow "V" rear mounted with about one foot of sight radius between front & rear sights.
Also, a regular shotgun stock with lower comb and more drop at heel will be installed, since most of my shooting is offhand.

I will be trying the 16ga. Paradox Gun first with .65 cal. roundball.(440 gr./1 oz.)
Barrel is .63 at the rifled muzzle section and .655 or .660 at the smooth-bored section.
I plan on loading with Triple Seven and using SPG lube, & brass cases w/ Circle Fly wads for brass cases (14ga.?)

If the ball does not work as well as I hope, where can I get pix of what a Paradox BULLET is supposed to look like?
I don't recall the twist ratio, but does anyone have reccomendations for weight of a Paradox bullet for 16 ga.?
Also, are there any molds currently being made and by whom?

I'me glad I'me here at Nitroexpress, where I was told I could find info. on Paradox Guns by soe of the fellows at Australian Hunting Net! :-)
Most "shooters" don't understand the attraction of a versatile gun for short-range woods hunting/stillhunting, that will also shoot birdshot well with no choke or barrel changes...Just swap cartridges to suit the game...
I've shot deer well over 200 yds. away a few times, and that was OK, but the ones I remember the most clearly, even from a half century ago, are the ones where I got close and it was a matter of FEET, not yards...
Most of my deer have been shot at 70 yds. or less, and I think a Paradox Gun will be ideal for the kind of hunting I most enjoy, as well as for blackbear and brash mtn. lions that show up around here occassionally.
Mebbe a moose up north someday....?
If I am loaded for grouse or hares, all I have to do is slip in a different load and I should be "good" for 100 yds. or so. (As far as my eyesight will allow me to shoot reasonably....)
Paradox seems to me to be an excellent choice for what I'de call "iron sight ranges" of not over 125 yds.
"Grouse-to-grizzlies", LOL!
I've still got alot to learn, obviously.... :-) , but it should be a great deal of fun doing so.

Thanks!
Dave3220


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Dave3220
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
ph.conversation w/ Ross Seyfried re. loading for NEF Paradox [Re: Dave3220]
      #118896 - 15/11/08 01:25 PM

While trying to find a copy of Shooting The British Double Rifle(2nd edition won't be available in U.S. for another 6 weeks or so, mebbe?) and inquiring about loading for Paradox Guns, I was given the ph. # of Ross Seyfried and gave the man a call.
Some things he mentioned were:"Paradox bored 16 ga. would normally have .051 constriction at choked/rifled muzzle section." (My NEF has aprox. .030 constriction)
He figured my NEF had a good chance of shooting well with a starting load of 3 drams of black powder, several wads, and a .65 cal. roundball.
He also thought I'de have better luck with paper or plastic cases.
Also said that he alloyed tin:lead 1:15.

I had been concerned that I had TOO MUCH "choke" too pattern shot well, but it looks like I don't have to worry about THAT. (Gun appears to pattern a tight imp.cyl. w/ 7/8 oz. factory loads.)
Only thing is whether or not the one oz. roundball will shoot well, and whether I have to get Veral Smith to make me a mold for a Paradox "bullet".

(Getting a bit closer.... ;-)

Any of you handload for your Paradox Guns?

Dave3220


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Sixteen bore, black powder, roundball [Re: Dave3220]
      #118900 - 15/11/08 03:23 PM

Dave-

Three drams black powder is a sweet little love tap with the ounce roundball.
Ross isn't steering you wrong.

You have absolutely nothing to lose in rolling a few up and blasting them down range.
Do it over a chronograph and let us know what velocity you're getting.


Take a look at this photo.



What you see there is what I do with over powder cards, and how I prepare felt wads for blackpowder/roundball.

See that roundball in the tweezers?
It's sitting on two felt wads. The one in the middle has a hole cut in it's 'bullseye', it's essentially shaped like a donut.
See how it spreads out under the pressure of the ball and the lower wad?
That's what you want.
See the card in the knurled ring?
It's been formed that way via a push through the die on the left. I pushed it through there with the brass punch.
That cup-card sits on the powder with the cup opening facing the powder.
The combination of that card and the stack of wads does very well to give you good gas seal, while keeping the roundball concentric on it's way to the rifled choke.

Give that a try.
Use milk carton for your cards, saddle felt (or circle fly wads, or whatever for the hard felt stock) and normal arch punches like what you see there (get them at the hardware store or make them from tubing that you can get at the hardware store...) to make the cards and wads.
You can accomplish the 'cupping' manouver via a block of plywood with a hole drilled in it, and a wooden dowel as a punch.

Grease your felt wads with Crisco if you don't have black powder bullet lube.

Run it and report back to us.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Dave3220
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
Re: Sixteen bore, black powder, roundball [Re: tinker]
      #118937 - 16/11/08 03:57 AM

THANKS, Tinker!
I have alot more confidance in a happy outcome between your and Ross's advice!

Dave3220


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Sixteen bore, black powder, roundball [Re: Dave3220]
      #118939 - 16/11/08 04:55 AM

Tinker's advice is spot-on Dave. As to alloy, you can use straight Wheel Weights or pure lead for round balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dave3220
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
Re: Sixteen bore, black/semi-smokeless powder, roundball [Re: DarylS]
      #121426 - 18/12/08 04:55 AM

I got a few loads put together with a very irregular roundball from a cheap DGW mold (NEI .662 ordered & on the way.....)
I loaded 90 gr. equivelant FFG only using Hodgdon's Triple Seven, a nitro card, 1/2" fiber wad and a soft 1/2" felt wad.
I used LEE liquid alox on the balls and put several crumbs of SPG black powder lube into the case neck of the unfired plastic cases.
When I used the BPI roll-crimper that you spin in a drill chuck the heat melted the lube nice and even and kidn of seals the cart.
I used no over-shot card...The "roll" curls over onto the ball nicely.
At 25 yds. 3 shots from a rest off the handlebar of my Rokon and two more offhand gave me a group center-to-center of 1.25"w x 1..75"h.

The brass case loads did not seem quite as accurate as the plastic case ones, so I took a poke with one of my remaining brass case loads at the tip of an old chainsaw bar my pard had leaned up against a stump as a 25 yd. pistol and .22 rimfire target.
THe .66 RB knocked a hole thru the roller or sprocket tip about the size of a two-bit coin.

Recoil is lighter than .45-70 and once I get some RBs from that new mold that is (hopefully) on the way that are actually ROUND, I'll try some longer ranges.
I have a hunch that I will be able to keep them on a playing card @ 50 yds.
I am pretty sure that I have a 30+ yd. effective range w/ birdshot.(Imp. cyl. , aprox.)

Haven't put these over a chronograph yet, but should be able to soon.

The "Poor Man's Paradox" was made by back-boring a rifled, heavy barrel 20 ga. NEF.
I am trying to find a mold maker so as to get a proper bullet to try, but the realities in MY world are such that the roundball is probalby more than adequate for my purposes.

It might be possible to take a heavy barreled 12 ga. rifled NEF and back-bore it to 10 ga. if you were in the north of "OZ" where you have water buffalo to deal with, but you will need to buy your own tooling for THAT project. (I had to buy tooling for Clearwater Reboring/Delta Gunshop, e-mail: jim@deltagunshop.com , to do this project, and I would be delighted to share my tooling with anyone who feels like having his own 16 ga. "Poor Man's Paradox" :-)

I have heard that Badger Barrels/Ernie Stallman, is manuf. 12 ga. Paradox barrel blanks for H&H.
I have an inquiry to Mr.Stallman about getting a barrel to re-barrel one of my large Martini 14/12 ga. guns.

Most of the "real world" shots my friends who can judge range or myself have taken over the last 50 years or so on deer and blackbear have been well under 100 yds..
From what I hear about moose, that usually happens pretty close, and feral hogs are NOT a long-range sniping proposition....
Recoil is fairly light considering how much lead you are pushing downrange...
More of a hard shove than a "kick", and it doesn't seem to aggravate my arthritus.

Also, I have followed tiny occassional pin-head size droplets of blood on my hands & knees for 20 minutes (that seemed like a couple hours), with heart-shot deer from .30 cal. rifles, and I don't believe you would have to look very hard even with my dimming eyesight to follow a blood trail from a .63 or larger ball or bullet that has gone thru both sides.

I think a gun like, even a single barrel, would be extremely practical for someone who wants to put some wild meat on the table and doesn't know what he is going to run into when he goes into the bush....
"Grouse to grizzlies", a heavy enough Paradox ball or bullet and 7/8+ oz.shot loads should do it all ;-)

Dave3220 (e-mail: dave3220@mac.com, if you want to find out more about Clearwater Reboring, Rokon trail machines, etc....)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Sixteen bore, black/semi-smokeless powder, roundball [Re: Dave3220]
      #121428 - 18/12/08 05:26 AM

The 12 bore to 10 bore will be about right as well, with a .045" (or thereabouts) restriction bore to bore. I don't know what the rifling depth or bore size is on the NEF, but assume it's around .729" to .730" which is normal 12 bore. A 10 is supposed to be .774" - hense .044" to .045". Depth per side sould be .0225 average + depth of the grooves, which might be in the .010 to .015" range.

Sounds good to me and very interesting in fact.

Another possibility would be to rifle the chokes of a 12 or 10 bore. Most full chokes have a 40 point (.040") total constriction, giving .020" per side. Rifled in perhaps 70 or 80" for round balls might make a wonderful poor-man's paradox.

I'm anxious to hear of Daves bench-type results opn paper with good round balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dave3220
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions.... [Re: Dave3220]
      #124807 - 22/01/09 05:49 AM

Since my previous try at posting load and accurascy info. went into the "cybernetic circular file", adn I don't want to throw away another 1 hour+ of my life, I'll keep this short till I know it isn't a complete waste of my tiem.

Accurascy: 40 yd. 4 shot group standing restign support hand on porch post: "one hole" (one hole the size of a playing card ;-)

25 yd. offhand accurascy: Favoring 1 1/2" to 2" low at a 12ga. slug hole in a block of wood made a "figure 8" by adding the upper loop of the 8.

50 yd. offhandputs shots within a couple inches of each other.

80 yd. offhand requirres NO hold-over and shot was within 2" of center.

Dave3220 (aka Paradox Pete ;-)


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Dave3220
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions....(Loads) [Re: Dave3220]
      #124808 - 22/01/09 06:05 AM

Here's how I'me loading "paradoxically" so far:
BPI Multi-Hull 16 2 3/4" cases and slightly modified BPI roll-crimper

68gr Hodgdon's Triple Seven(H-777) eqauls bulk and aprox. vel. of 90 gr. FFg.
I load one 1/8" and one 1/16" nitro card over powder and a 1/2" fiber wad, then .662 roudn ball SPRUE down, some bullet lube, and then roll-crimp with BPI crimper in Makita drill. (Friction heat softens the plastic case so it will "roll" evenly, and melts and spreads the lube as bullet lube and seals case mouth.)
Vel. of this load is 1,300 fps from my NEF's 22" barrel.(Not bad for a near-440gr. ball :-)

71gr. of H-777 or 95gr. of FFg uses a single 1/8" notro card, then 1/2" fiber wad, etc.

74 gr. of H-777 or 100gr FFg uses single 1/16" nitor card, then fiber wad.

Recoil feels like a 16ga. (big surprise!;-), or a stiffish 20 ga. field load. or a "low recoil" Federal Tru-Flite 12ga. buck load.

I will be trying different wad combinations and powders in future.

Dave3220


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions.... [Re: Dave3220]
      #124809 - 22/01/09 06:11 AM

Sounds like you've got a winner - good shooting - great idea for a single shot. Too bad the doubles lack the barrel size to do this - BUT - full chokes could be rifled?

Here's a group shot with my 16 bore double, using the right, straight rifled barrel only, using - .684" bore round ball, 1-.715" card, 2, 1/2" BP lubed 16 bore felts, then the ball and crimped with a paper case cone crimp starter from an old press. Oh yes, I used 3 drams (82gr.) 3F GOEX - & should be running close to 1,300fps. The straight rifling will restrict longer range accuracy, but the 1st 5 did go into 1-1/2", offhand at 28 yards. I was cold, tired and shot quickly & I'm not as a good an offhand shot as many guys - enough excuses? Not sure that #6 hole is mine - that's when I noticed it, though - so could be. The carboard sheet was laying in the snow as I'd left my targets in the truck - too much crap to pack for the walk-in just to see if the gun would go bang. I should note here that the rifled barrel is oversize from chamber to muzzle, has a .671" bore diameter, with .703" groove diameter, = .016" deep rifling.
Large bores & round balls are fun! Keep up the good work, Dave.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dave3220
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Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions (killing power) [Re: Dave3220]
      #124811 - 22/01/09 06:33 AM

Having got a bit of chronograph data and some encouraging results if field accurascy tests,"Waht have I really got...?"

I have not hunted with Paradox guns other than a few grouse taken with earlier smaller ga. R&D.
I HAVE shot and hunted with .45-70 from age 14 on, and recently have taken to .50-70.

Old journals show that hunters of Amer.bison counted on the .50-70-450 to kill with one shot almost all the time, and that the smaller diameter .45-70-500, despite the sma powder charge and slightly heavier bullet was not as reliable a one-shot killer. (100's of rds. of .50-70 were recently dug up at the site of the Adobe Walls siege.)
Only difference I can figure is DIAMETER....

If the difference between a nominally .46 cal. and a .51 cal. ,weight of shot and powder charge being equal is due ot .05" diameter or not, I think some "fair" comparisons between 16 ga. Paradox loaded w/ 440 gr. RB and .50-70-450 might give an ideer what kidn of a "under-100yd." performance we might expect.
A .50-70-450 has a pointy bullet and a vel. of 1,100 to 1,150 fps.
The 16ga. Paradox throws a blunt/roundball of the same weight 150 to 200 fps FASTER, and by the time the .66 cal. RB makes it thru the rifled choke at the end of my NEF's barrel, it is .63 caliber.
If there actually IS a perceptible difference between .46 & .51 cal.s on large game, might there not be a noticeable betterment of a jump from .51 to .63?

Anyways, I am expecting my 16ga. PMP(poorman's paradox)to approximate the .50-70, if not better it, at short ranges, on larger animals.

Range with birdshot is 30 to 35 yds. for killing patterns, with fiber wad-only handloads inclining to 30 yds.max.

I think I will be able to keep my shots on a paperplate out to 125 or mebbe 135 yds. merely by holding on the 12:00 edge of the plate.

It would appear to ME that this has the potential of being a pretty versatile gun, and since it doesn't kick hard for the power it delivers, and shoots shot at smaller critters, suits someone whose vision is getting worse as well.

Dave3220, aka "Paradox Pete" ;-)


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Dave3220
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/08
Posts: 8
Loc: inland Wash. state, USA
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions.... [Re: DarylS]
      #124813 - 22/01/09 06:57 AM

Daryl,
Nice "one hole group" dude! LOL!

real pretty loads in those brass cases, too BTW.

My gun seems to shoot balls better from thicker cases than my pretty Mag-Tech full brass ones. (Darn it! :-)
I use 14ga. wads in my Mag-Tech cases for shot loads.

Dave3220


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27606
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions.... [Re: Dave3220]
      #124855 - 22/01/09 02:02 PM

Dave - The 50/70 would have had the same power as your 20 bore paradox if it was shooting a .63 calibre bullet at the same speed. Size does matter when it comes to bullets and game. There is a bit difference in tissue displacement between the 32 bore and a 19 bore, between a pointed bullet and one possessing a hemispherical nose. No comparrison, even if they were the same calibre - the hemispherical shape ball wins out. The only one possibly better, would be a full groove diameter flat nose, but they usualy don't carry well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: "Paradox" NEF Single barrel conversions.... [Re: DarylS]
      #125419 - 30/01/09 12:03 PM

WOW! Good stuff guys. I too am interested in paradox guns. I've killed deer and bear with a 12 bore blackpowder rifle and can testify to the brute power of a 12 gauge roundball. Even a big Alaska black bear through the shoulders did not keep the ball from continuing on its way. Of course a muzzleloader doesn't allow one to quickly change ammo when different game is sighted. So you are giving me all kinds of ideas. Thanks for sharing!

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