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szihn
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #116899 - 14/10/08 11:30 AM

Speaking strictly for myself (to answer the 1st question)----
I don't really think so.

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shinz
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: szihn]
      #116918 - 14/10/08 06:06 PM

Quote:

Speaking strictly for myself (to answer the 1st question)----
I don't really think so.



What Steve said & I'd have to agree. Many of the posts, including my own, have identified cartridges people would like to build a double in but I don't think any have identified an area that another similar cartridge has not already been chambered for. Certainly some are not easy to come by today & that would be an excuse to chamber for another. Maybe the thread should have been "What cartridges not in current use you would like to build a double in?" 318WR Flanged
Steve

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4seventy
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #116957 - 15/10/08 08:14 AM

Quote:

and fire formed to expand the base of the cartridge buldgeing the cartridge just ahead of the rim, makeing a very funny looking final form of the cartridge!



Mac,
That's scary!
The brass "just ahead of the rim" is the solid head section of the case, and any sign of bulging there is an indication of VERY high pressure even when you're dealing with bolt action strength.
Bulging of the case just forward of the rim in a double rifle is totally out of the question!

Quote:

The 240 H&H flanged is almost imposible to find componant brass for! I passed up a very clean H&H double rifle a few years ago because of the difficulty of finding, or makeing brass.



I have never attempted to make cases for that cartridge, but the dimensions that I have for it suggest that it would not be all that difficult to do.
Maybe the dimensions I have are incorrect.

What base diameter measurement do you have for the .240 Flanged?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: 4seventy]
      #117019 - 16/10/08 01:21 AM

I suppose a good idea of a "brainstorming session" is to first look at ideas, before practicalities or the negatives.

If the idea is to fill a "gap" or modify somewhat eg a shorter tapered flanged cartridge to not have excess capacity but with the same performance and pressure (?) is there "gaps"?

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John aka NitroX

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: 4seventy]
      #117020 - 16/10/08 02:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

and fire formed to expand the base of the cartridge buldgeing the cartridge just ahead of the rim, makeing a very funny looking final form of the cartridge!



Mac,
That's scary!
The brass "just ahead of the rim" is the solid head section of the case, and any sign of bulging there is an indication of VERY high pressure even when you're dealing with bolt action strength.
Bulging of the case just forward of the rim in a double rifle is totally out of the question!





What did you think my point was! It would not only be scary, but problematic in a double rifle, even if safe, that is why I never did it!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: 4seventy]
      #117022 - 16/10/08 02:53 AM

Quote:


I have never attempted to make cases for that cartridge, but the dimensions that I have for it suggest that it would not be all that difficult to do.
Maybe the dimensions I have are incorrect.

What base diameter measurement do you have for the .240 Flanged?



You are correct, I had it backwards! the head would have to be swaged down, a much better choice, but would require anealing in that area, I'm sure, but doable. The 9.3X74R head dia is .465[/COLOR]




H&H 240 flanged
.........case type rimmed B/N

.........case length 2.496

.........case head dia .448

.........rim dia .513

.........neck dia .274

.........neck length .345

.........shoulder lgth .163

.........body angle(dgs/side) .736

........loaded lgth 3.25

........rim thickness .06

........shoulder dia .402

........lgnth to shoulder 1.988

........sholder angle (deg) 21.44

........case capacity grs water 57.63

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: NitroX]
      #117057 - 16/10/08 01:51 PM

Quote:

I suppose a good idea of a "brainstorming session" is to first look at ideas, before practicalities or the negatives.

If the idea is to fill a "gap" or modify somewhat eg a shorter tapered flanged cartridge to not have excess capacity but with the same performance and pressure (?) is there "gaps"?



Personally I don't think there are too many gaps if any at all.

Maybe if someone wanted a cartridge which used cheap and easy to obtain cases and projectiles.

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4seventy
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #117059 - 16/10/08 02:13 PM

Quote:

the head would have to be swaged down, a much better choice, but would require anealing in that area,



I realize this is off topic so I'll be brief here.

I would never anneal (soften) a cartridge case at the head!
[High safety risk]

Edited by 4seventy (16/10/08 07:29 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: 4seventy]
      #117063 - 16/10/08 02:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I suppose a good idea of a "brainstorming session" is to first look at ideas, before practicalities or the negatives.

If the idea is to fill a "gap" or modify somewhat eg a shorter tapered flanged cartridge to not have excess capacity but with the same performance and pressure (?) is there "gaps"?



Personally I don't think there are too many gaps if any at all.

Maybe if someone wanted a cartridge which used cheap and easy to obtain cases and projectiles.



I give up on this topic.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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4seventy
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: NitroX]
      #117073 - 16/10/08 05:02 PM

Ok,
I've just had a look at a lineup of cartridges from 7mm through to 500 NE.

If the criteria includes (no wad) case capacity and bullet availability, I can really only come up with one "gap" and that is the .338 cal which you have mentioned earlier in this thread.
The .333 Jeffery is there but with a slightly smaller bullet dia of .333.

So you could create a .338 maybe by necking down the .375 Flanged Magnum and have a case capacity which wouldn't require wadding, and you would end up with what could be called the .375-.338 NE Flanged Magnum.
John you could do this and call the cartridge the 338 NitroXpress!

If you look at both NE cartridges and Metric flanged cartridges, there is a very good range available which have case capacity well suited to modern powders.

Regarding a .416 with less recoil than the 500-416, there is already the .400 Jeffery which has good case capacity and nowadays has good availability of components including bullets.
You could of course neck it up to take .416 dia bullets and therefore create the 416 Jeffery or the 450-416 NE or the 400-416 or whatever.

If however, a person wants to use relatively fast powders in the existing NE cartridge line up, things may be different.
Trying to use the faster powders, and reduce case capacity to eliminate the need for wadding, and at the same time keep pressures down for use in double rifles, is maybe asking too much IMO.

Edited by 4seventy (16/10/08 05:19 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #117075 - 16/10/08 07:56 PM

Quote:

what I want is a 243WIN cartridge, only with a flanged case, with no other changes! The 307 Win is a 308 Win case with a SIMI RIMMED case that can be run inot a 243 Win die to turn it into a simi rimmed 243 Win, after reaming out the neck. I may build one of those, but I'd rather have a real flanged case.




Mac,
Why not use the 9.3x74R case to create your .243 flanged?
The head diameter is only a few thou smaller than the .243 Win case and the 9.3 has a proper rim. You could shorten it to whatever you want and straighten out the taper a bit as well.
You could also consider the 7x57 Rimmed or the 7x65 rimmed as parent cases.

You are right in that the .243 caliber is probabaly one of the "gaps" in the line up.
I reckon one of the hardest things in putting a home built SxS double together for such a cartridge would be finding a small enough action frame.
Might have to build one from scratch!

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: 4seventy]
      #117094 - 17/10/08 06:14 AM

Allen, The 20 ga, would work, but the 28 ga action would be better for a 243 flanged. Merkel's smaller cartridges are now made on the 28 ga size action,in the model 141.

You are correct, the 9.3X74R shortened and formed in a 243 die would do the trick. Though it would be a little loose in the head area of the sizeing die, for re-sizeing, it would likely work with a 243 win die set, and a 9.3X74R shell holder! With 100 gr bullets, pushed at around 2800 fps it would make a cracker-jack double rifle for deer hunting, in the woods, or cross canyon, with a good light weight 2-7X32mm scope in QD mounts!

I've been hunting with double rifles, and cape guns for years, in North America, for everything from tit-mouse to moose, and I have always thought a fine well ballanced S/S double rifle chambered for a flanged 243 Win is a spot the makers, mistakenly, left out!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #117099 - 17/10/08 08:15 AM

There is an easier way. The 6mm Remington is a dandy cartridge which happens to be the 7x57 necked down. Why not have your double rifle in 6x57R, being a 6mm Rem loaded on the 7x57R case?

You could even save yourself some money by forming your brass from .444 Marlin, which is really cheap.

Back in my younger years when I was having a lot of custom work done I had a Win High Wall made up as a varmint rifle in .257 Roberts Rimmed, and I made my brass from .444 Marlin. I also made 7x57R brass from the .444 when I had a double rifle in that caliber many years ago.

Likewise, you can form .243 Win Rimmed from .444, but why do that when you can do the 6mm Rem (6x57R) easier and without the big trim job.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Wes350
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: CptCurl]
      #117133 - 18/10/08 02:57 AM



I've always wondered whay there was no .450 3" NE. You have 3.25" and 3" versions of almost everything else.

.400 NE = 3" and 3.25
.500 NE = 3" and 3.25
.577 NE = 3" and 3.25

But it seems that the 3" versions of these ctgs are more popular that thier 3.25" counterparts.
The .600 NE is only in 3"

Also it seems all the other .450 class cartridges are only in 3.25" (.470, .475, .465)

I think the .476 NE Westley Richards was 3". But I wonder why no one gave the same treatment to the other calibres in the same class.

Has nobody blown out the .400 jeffery and done a .450 3" NE? Or necked down the .476 WR?

Of course I realize that "wildcatting" DR cartridges is quite a bit more difficult than making alterations to commercially avaliable bolt actions.


.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: CptCurl]
      #117139 - 18/10/08 04:47 AM

Quote:

There is an easier way. The 6mm Remington is a dandy cartridge which happens to be the 7x57 necked down. Why not have your double rifle in 6x57R, being a 6mm Rem loaded on the 7x57R case?<<SNIP

SNIP>> Likewise, you can form .243 Win Rimmed from .444, but why do that when you can do the 6mm Rem (6x57R) easier and without the big trim job.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Curl




The main reason I woulddn't do that is I simply have never liked the 6mm Rem! It seems most others don't like it either considering the 243Win out sells the 6mm Rem by five fold! No good reason, just what most seem to want, myself included. You are correct, though, it would be a lot easier.

There is nothing wrong with a 6mm if that is what one wants, but I don't want one, and prefere the 243 Win. No reason just a personal thing, it just happens to be one of my all time favorite cartridges. I had a custom rifle made in the wildcat 243 Page Pooper, long before Winchester came out with their version of that wildcat calling it the 243 WIN. SO, I have a long history with the 243 Win.

It would be no harder to make the 243 Win Rimmed from 444 brass than it would to make the 6mm from 444 brass. The 6mm Rem being a 7x57 case necked down, is no better than a 308 case necked down, and I think the easiest way to get what I want is to go with the 307 Win simi-rimmed case necked down to 243, with the 307 being the same case as the 243 win with a simi rim. Of course the 9.3X74 case will be around a lot longer that the 307, 0r the 444. Both those rounds are nearly dead in the water. However I could form 1500 rounds of either, and have brass as long as I'll live at age 72! The 308/307 case is designed for much higher pressures than the 444, or the 9.3X74R cases, so would be less stressfull on the double than the other two. The 7X57R case would be strong as well.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #117144 - 18/10/08 05:51 AM

Mac,

Don't be fooled about the strength of the .444 brass. It is beefed up to be used in relatively springy lever action guns.

You are certainly correct that a .243 Rimmed can be formed as you said. In fact, I had a hunting buddy who chambered an antique Brit single shot action for a .22/250 Rimmed, and he made his brass out of .444.

Wonderful stuff, that .444 brass.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: CptCurl]
      #117151 - 18/10/08 08:24 AM

CAPT I use the 444 brass all the time, for makeing the JDJ cartridges in my TC Contender hunting pistols. I have a 411 JDJ now and have had two 375 JDJs, one a contender, and the other a Valmet 412 375 Win barrel set, re-chambered for the 375 JDJ, makeing a very good 375 JDJ double rifle. I had no trouble with any of the brass except the bending of the case head out of line with the case body. That wasn't caused wholey by the stringth of the brass, but was exasorbated by the springiness of the action on the contender. I had the same problem with 30-30 brass in the contender. I most likely will never build either the 6mm/7mmR or the 243 simi-rimmed but it is a thought! I will, however build another 243 Jakal (256 Win Mag necked to .243 with a 87 gr sp)a wildcat of my own, double on a good 410 ga action!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
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"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #117161 - 18/10/08 12:50 PM

Mac,

That .375 JDJ is a heck of a cartridge. I have a No 3 Ruger that is drilled out to that chamber. What a heck of a shooter!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: CptCurl]
      #117204 - 19/10/08 05:42 AM

Yes the 375 JDJ is one heck of a cartridge, and now that factory ammo is available I don't have om any longer. The old Valmet was a real shooter, and the 375 Win, barrels were 1 in 10" twist, perfect for the 375 JDJ or the 375 H&H. I re-chambered that barrel set, and regulated it for 300 gr bullets, then perminately soldered the adjustments solid, then installed concave ribs between the barrels. Wish I had not sold it, but at the time I needed the money to buy a very good shape Westley Richards 500/450NE box lock double. Don't have that one anymore either!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Is there a gap in the Nitro Express calibre line up? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #118577 - 09/11/08 01:43 AM

Quote:

Yes the 375 JDJ is one heck of a cartridge, and now that factory ammo is available I don't have om any longer. The old Valmet was a real shooter, and the 375 Win, barrels were 1 in 12" twist, perfect for the 375 JDJ or the 375 H&H. I re-chambered that barrel set, and regulated it for 300 gr bullets, then perminately soldered the adjustments solid, then installed concave ribs between the barrels. Wish I had not sold it, but at the time I needed the money to buy a very good shape Westley Richards 500/450NE box lock double. Don't have that one anymore either!



Corrected post, The barrel was a 1 in 12" twist not 1 in 10" !

Sorry about that!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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