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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
My first Double
      #116093 - 02/10/08 07:48 AM

Gentlemen

I just bought my first double

The BIG joke is that it is a .458 Win mag
My plan is to change it to .450 NE or 458 LOTT.

The price was right - secret

The Gun is only test fired and never used.
The first thing I will do is refinish the stock to a gloss finish with CCL oil.

Made by Franz Sodia.

What do you all think?

Cheers,

André













--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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MacNaughton360
.275 member


Reged: 10/12/07
Posts: 99
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116096 - 02/10/08 09:17 AM

To each his own...
But why refinish?
I prefer a matte finish myself.
Neat looking gun as-is. I'm envious.


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RLI
.375 member


Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: My first Double [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #116097 - 02/10/08 09:23 AM

Ejector or Extractor?

If it worked ok I would only change that white line spacer butt pad and grip cap , overall nice rifle.

Edited by RLI (02/10/08 09:25 AM)


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: My first Double [Re: RLI]
      #116098 - 02/10/08 09:34 AM


Looks good.

I wouldn't refinsih.


I would do as suggested re the White Line Spacer.


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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: My first Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #116108 - 02/10/08 12:24 PM

JefferyDenmark,
Very nice Double. I would leave it just the way it is. With todays loads, if the regulate well, you have all you need. Great all around rifle capable of any hunting in the world. Bear in Russia or Romania, Buff in Africa, even the occasional Elg (Moose) or other big game. Congratulations. I am envious as well.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: My first Double [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #116115 - 02/10/08 01:34 PM

Really a nice honest double!
I agree on the spacer pad and grip cap - just can't warm up to that look, especially on a double.
A steel cap and a nice Silvers or Old English pad would do the trick for me.
I don't know much about CCL oil, but I have used tung oil and I like that a lot.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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bigmaxx
.375 member


Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: My first Double [Re: Huvius]
      #116118 - 02/10/08 02:06 PM

Wow, neat rifle! I like it as is. Love the wood. With modern powder and components the .458 winchester magnum is a super cartridge. I would love to have a double in that caliber. Anywhere you go that has dangerous game will probably have ammo for your rifle. Thats why I hunt with a lott. Nice feature if you ask me. If it shoots good as is, I would NOT rebore to another caliber. If it aint broke, dont fix it. As stated, might be a bitch to get it regulated with the new cartridge. Conratulations on a fine rifle aquisition.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: My first Double [Re: bigmaxx]
      #116127 - 02/10/08 05:21 PM

Thank you very much for all the coments.
I will loose the white spacers TRUST ME they do not look good on a classic design. I will also get a more classic pad to get the vintage look.
I is a hobby of mine to refinish rifle stock and I will enjoy to do this fine piece of wood, I really think it will come to live when I get some oil worked into it.

I have no .458 winchester load experience.........would it be possible to get a 500 grn bullet to go 2150 fps? or should I rebore it to LOTT at least?
I would feel alot better if it was 450 NE........I know it will still shoot the same bullet, dam those old British cartridges!

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: My first Double [Re: RLI]
      #116128 - 02/10/08 05:33 PM

Quote:

Ejector or Extractor?

If it worked ok I would only change that white line spacer butt pad and grip cap , overall nice rifle.




This rifle has ejectors.

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116129 - 02/10/08 05:35 PM

Quote:

or should I rebore it to LOTT at least?





No.

Looks like a very nice usable double. Personally if I had it, I would give it a try as the standard .458 Win Mag first and see how it performs.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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bigmaxx
.375 member


Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: My first Double [Re: NitroX]
      #116139 - 02/10/08 07:54 PM

The .458 lott came into existance due to a problem with some of the early powders. That is long since gone with the innovations of modern powders. The .458 winchester is a wonderful caliber. You should have no trouble at all attaining 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet. I shoot a .458 lott and my handloads are at 2150 fps. Gets the job done and really accurate too.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Post deleted by NitroX [Re: bigmaxx]
      #116140 - 02/10/08 09:20 PM



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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: My first Double [Re: ]
      #116151 - 03/10/08 01:09 AM

A handsome rifle with a good name. Will a .450 NE reamer take out the .458 belt groove? If not maybe the .500/450 one would. On the finish, yes, I think oiled is better - but would change the pad.

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: My first Double [Re: Paul]
      #116155 - 03/10/08 01:56 AM

Congratulations André.

I seem to recall that "JPK" has a double in 458Win, and is very pleased with it. I don't think he has rebored it, and he has shot numerous elephant with that double with no problems that I am aware of.

Try it out for a while first before changing anything.

Except for the white spacers! Those need to be burned ASAP!


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: My first Double [Re: EricD]
      #116157 - 03/10/08 03:25 AM

Thanks Gents
Good idea Erik I will burn the white spacers and post pictures - unless they are Ivory
I will see how it feels owning a double in a bolt action cartridge

To sum it up:
Burn white spacers
Loose ugly pussy recoil pad
Purdey oil finish
Reconsider re-chambering.

Do we have consensus

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116159 - 03/10/08 04:25 AM

Quote:


Loose ugly pussy recoil pad





An old warrior such as yourself André should consider small sharp metal spikes sticking out where the recoil pad is. This will hold the buttstock steadily to your shoulder, and in addition keep you tough for future knife boar hunting in South America.


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116162 - 03/10/08 04:55 AM

Congratulations!


I'm very happy for you.
Definitely take the advice to *frist run this rifle as .458 Winchester* -- and then re-visit your interest in rechambering the rifle.

Here in the 21st Century, the .458 Winchester is everything it was planned to be, with perfectly effective bullets and very effective and consistent powders and primers.
It'll do it all.

Take a look at our fellow member, JPK

He's taken numerous elephant with his .458 Winchester SxS Double Rifle.
Go through his posts and see the path he took with his .458 rifle, and where he stands currently on the cartridge.

I won't attempt to stand between you and your plans to refinish the wood -- and I will applaud you on your statement of interest in ditching the white line spacer too!


I look forward to seeing how you progress with the rifle, at the workbench, at the target, and in the field!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116170 - 03/10/08 08:25 AM

André,

Congratulations and may this be the first in a gunsafe filled with many doubles!

Yes, please leave the rifle original except for the recoil pad. This is a beautiful rifle and it should be possible for you, since you make your own bullets anyway, to work out a good load for it.

Now that you have posted gun pictures here, you are duty-bound to post hunting pictures in the futures as well. On that note, let me wish you great hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116190 - 03/10/08 12:55 PM

Quote:

I will see how it feels owning a double in a bolt action cartridge

To sum it up:
Burn white spacers
Loose ugly pussy recoil pad
Purdey oil finish
Reconsider re-chambering.

Do we have consensus





The superficial changes sound a good idea - recoil pad, removing white spaces, and refinishing.

Regarding rechambering. Many on NE would no doubt say a magnum or rimless cartridge has no place on a double rifle, especially a dangerous game one. In theory they are absolutely correct. A nice tapered lower pressure flanged cartridge is better extracting, more suited.

However many modern double rifles are made for magnum cartridges such as the .375, .458 etc. And used well without fail including on elephant, buffalo, lion, South American monster boar ( ) etc. Speak to JPK and see what he thinks. ".458Double", an Aussie friend also has a double in a magnum chambering and no doubt has taken buffalo and maybe elephant with it.

Ideally if I was looking for a double I would certainly look for a flanged chambering. However if a rifle with an attractive price presented it I would certainly consider it and give it a try. It it performs good, if not, sell it off and look again.

As for rechambering there are certainly better people on NE than me to comment. I do not see any reason to rechamber it to the Lott however, unless you plan to load the Lott well under usual performance. I think rechambering a bolt action to the Lott is a good idea but can't see any benefit in doing it in a double rifle.

Any other NE members have an opinion on this? Please comment.

Secondly again maybe I am wrong, but if your rifle regulates well in th .458WM chambering, might not rechambering it to another chambering potentialy cause regulation issues? I don't know. But if it does it could get expensive to regulate.

Anyone else want to comment?

Andre,

Great rifle. If it shoots well and operates well, I think you will enjoy it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: My first Double [Re: NitroX]
      #116215 - 04/10/08 01:13 AM

Congrats, nice rifle, especially with the pad and grip cap and refinishing you have in mind.

How long are the barrels on your rifle? This will impact any decision on rechambering, especially since the 458wm likes longer barrels for top performance.

Regarding any thought soyu have on rechambering:

DON'T RECHAMBER TO THE LOTT!!! There is nothing to be gained and much to be risked going this route, imo.

Before any consideration regarding rechambering, you really need to develop a load that shoots to your rifle's regulation first. I have found sevearl loads that make 500gr bullets regulate at velocities between 2050fps and 2145fps. 2145fps is plenty sufficient for elephant bulls, which are most demanding of penetration. Powders which have proven helpful with 500gr Woodleighs are AA 2230 - best in my rifle, H 4895, Varget, H335.

I noticed no benefit and little difference at all trying 480gr Woodleighs so abandoned that effert. The Woodleigh 480's also eat powder room because of the rearward location og the cannelure.

For 450grNorth Fork flat nose solids, H4895 works well as does AA2230, but I am going to try a couple of different powders like H335. The North Fork flat nose solids give astounging penetration as lower muzzle energy figures. I shoot the 450's at ~2200fps and their performance is remarkable.

Once you find out how your rifle shoots as a 458wm you may find accuracy and velocity are where you want them to be. IMO, velocity from 2000fps up is fine for buff, but for elephants you want 2100fps or better. If you find your rifle shooting the 500's at 2100fps or so, hopefully better, then shoot it a lot to see if there are any extraction or ejection issues. To try to make my 458wm double fail, I left the chambers and ejection system dirty for more than 200 rounds and could find no fault. I suggest a symilar test, you are trying to creat a situation where any trouble will come to light.

If you rifle passes the test of trying to make it fail to extract or eject perfectly, every time, leave it alone!

And then try some Federal ammo just to see how it will shoot should you find yourself in Africa and your ammo soewhwere else.

(My rifle shoots the slower than my handload 500 Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solids at 2090fps about an inch lower than my loads and crossing by about 5"'s or so, which is still sufficient to hunt elephants up close and buff to maybe 75yds if that is the ammo I'm stuck with.)

If your rifle isn't well regulated or won't provide flawless extraction and ejection, or you can't find a 458wm that gives adequate performance, then rechambering might be the course of action to take.

The 450NE 3 1/4" reamer will clean up the 458wm chamber while leaving the most steel at the chambers and so this is the logical choice. Also Hornaday is making cases and is now or shortly will be providing loaded ammo. The logical resolution, if rechambering is nessescary is to go with the 450NE 3 1/4" chambers and the reregulate, if required, with the Hotnaday factory load.

When I was looking at rechambering I was told that a rechambering brings a 50/50 risk of needed to reregulate and reregulating brings a 50/50 chance of needing to reblack the barrels. JJ Perodeau's quote - from maybe four or five years ago - was about $600 for rechambering and ejector work, $600 for reregulation and $600 for reblack.

BTW, my rifle is still going strong after maybe 850 round through it, with no signs of looseness and no isnstance of any trouble with extraction or ejection.

Here is a tip for case preparation for ammo you will use for dangerous game: With a wheel mounted buffer, carefull knock off the 90* angle on the front edge of the belt on the 458wm cases. The cartridge headspaces on the belt so only round off the edge of the angle, without involving the front flat of the belt. Done right, your ammo will drop right into the chamber and not need to be pushed in over the paw which engages the rim. Works well in my rifle.

Hope this helps!

JPK


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: My first Double [Re: JPK]
      #116260 - 05/10/08 01:35 AM

John and JPK

Thanks for some great information.
I will leave it as a .458 for now. But you know how it is when you are bitten by the vintage bug.
My other rifles 8x57J, .375 H&H, 10,75x68 will tease the new kid in the safe it is tough being non-vintage in my safe
Question: What factory ammo works best in new doubles like this? I will buy a box of factory ammo and test shot it ASAP.
What cases are the best for reloading?

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: My first Double [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116282 - 05/10/08 09:52 AM

I use Norma cases and find them excellent.

Might want to try Norma ammo loaded with Woodleighs.

I was told that my rifle, which was made circa 1980, was probably regulated with Browning ammo and that Browning ammo was hotter than US 458wm ammo.

Regarding vintage, there is a member here who's tagline reads, "Never hunt with a cartridge younger than you are." I was born in 1961, the 458wm was brought out in either 1956 or 1958.

JPK


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: My first Double [Re: JPK]
      #116312 - 05/10/08 11:44 PM

Thanks for that information.
Have you ever reloaded those nickle cases from Federal or Remmington?
What powders do you use? I was thinking about using Vithavouri N530.


Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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