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tkv000
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Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 118
Loc: Canada
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #123615 - 10/01/09 04:01 PM

I love the fold down rear sight, elegant and functional.

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #123622 - 10/01/09 06:48 PM

Marcus,

Congratulations on your very fine taste and on this treasure that you own. All I shall add to this is that if some people think that clamshell actioned rifles look clumsy and unattractive, they deserve to get their heads examined.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #123636 - 10/01/09 11:48 PM

Mark,

Congratulations on your rifle. More photos are called for! Keep us informed of load development, etc.

And my warm welcome to NE.com goes to you also.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Loc: France / Germany
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: DRarchive]
      #123637 - 10/01/09 11:52 PM

A beautiful rifle, but not a cartridge ( .280 Ross ) for a double!

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: grandveneur]
      #123706 - 11/01/09 10:54 AM

Thank you for your comments. The .280 Ross is certainly on the lighter side of what we typically expect to see in cartridges for double rifles, as compared to the 9.3X74R and larger Nitro Express rounds. Being the first 7mm magnum cartridge supposedly breaking the 3000 ft/sec mark the .280 Ross was really something at the time. Winning the famous Bisley international matches in 1908, 1912 and 1913 (King's Prize) plus many other prizes in different competitions on both sides of the Atlantic made it all the rage around the time the subject double rifle was probably being ordered. It wasn't long before the .280 Flanged was introduced to be used in double rifles. British doubles in .280 Flanged show up now and again. One showed up for sale on the Internet a week or so after I bought my .280 Ross. The problem with the cartridge was the bullet manufacturing technology at the time was behind that of the performance capabilities of the new smokeless powders. As Chuck Hawks put it "even with the relatively fast burning burning smokeless powders available in 1906 it was possible to drive bullets at speeds beyond their ability to provide reliable terminal performance. In other words, hunting bullets fired at high velocity from .280 rifles would sometimes fragment and fail to penetrate into a vital area". Today with the high quality bullets available for the .280 Ross from Hawk Precision Bullets, Horneber cases, modern primers, and powders such as IMR-4350 I should do just fine. Finding the right load to get both barrels shooting to my satisfaction should make for a good time on the range. As the .280 Ross was a "reach out and touch someone" cartridge I'm not at all surprised that the subject piece was fitted with a scope. For me it's one of those good and bad situations to deal with. The bad side of having the scope mounts is the rear mount covering some of the inlay work on the barrel breeches. Then again, what does one do when he has ordered a rifle chambered for a round that was originally designed for mountain hunting as a "stalking rifle" combination for the red stag of the Scottish crags which is much the same as our western sheep and goat hunting (note the sheep engraved on right side panel of the subject rifle). We're talking a round that when configured with a 180 grain was claimed to have a trajectory height of 3 1/2" at 300 yards and groups of only a bit over 4" at 500 yards were claimed in a 1910 .280 Ross Match Rifle. The word "claimed" is used quite often in articles about the .280 Ross cartridge and rifle but then again one has to go back to the international matches of 1908, 1912, and 1913 to figure much of it had to be fact. It's still a double rifle and not a single barrel match rifle but I have the feeling most of us can imagine what the guy who had the subject piece made was thinking, and it's pretty too!

If I do take it hunting some day the first thing I'm going to do is harvest some Russian boar loins the way the early German gunsmith's would have wanted me to.

Best regards,

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #123749 - 11/01/09 11:17 PM

For hunting deer that's a good cartridge. For Russian boars, better use a bigger caliber. This game is very strong and heavy. A old 9,3 mm is a good choice. Best regards.

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: grandveneur]
      #123784 - 12/01/09 04:09 AM

grandveneur,

Thank you for your words of caution. I'll definitely take them into consideration as well as test results before I take on anything that stands a chance of screwing up my day. If it's decided that the 9.3X74R is the round to use, I have a couple of them as well. One in particular is also a piece that I want to use for a "classic" boar hunt. That piece is a 9.3X74R Brenneke clamshell drilling that I'm working on. I'll be sending pictures of that project to the forum. Specifically it is a 1912 Brenneke "Patent Drilling" with very interesting engraving which I hoping the international group of NE folks can help me identify. The artwork looks Morocan. Without posted photographs I'll hold off on saying more for now.

Thanks again,

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #123869 - 13/01/09 01:24 AM

Oops, with regard to the artwork on the Brenneke clamshell drilling I meant to say the artwork looks (to me to be) Moroccan. I hope to send pictures relatively soon.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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baileybradshaw
.333 member


Reged: 21/06/08
Posts: 305
Loc: Diana, TX
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #124936 - 23/01/09 12:46 PM

Congratulations on the rifle Marcus. It's a really special piece.
I love it.

--------------------
www.bradshawgunandrifle.com


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: baileybradshaw]
      #125222 - 27/01/09 07:51 PM

That little 'hole in the wall' gunshop never ceases to amaze me with some of the treasures they find!
GNG is highly thought of around here and has been for quite some time.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

Edited by AkMike (28/01/09 06:56 AM)


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dons
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Reged: 18/08/07
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Loc: Essex
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #125235 - 28/01/09 02:15 AM

I am anxious to find out who the maker is. The design and detail of this rifle is exquisite. There is something about a straight stock that appeals to the senses. I can easily understand why there was no hesitation with regard to purchasing this piece. The caliber, IMHO, is a plus.

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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: dons]
      #125257 - 28/01/09 10:28 AM

All,

Thank you.

Buying this piece from GNG was a good experience for me. I hadn't heard of them prior but after dealing with them on the subject double I look forward to doing business with them again. If anything they undersold some of the nice features. The openness and honesty of Joe and his staff was a welcome relief after dealing with a couple, fortunately rare, "operators" in my search for a high-end clamshell.

As to knowing who the maker is, I'm still in the dark. I've included a couple pictures of some stampings on the barrels that have yet to be identified. They're not that easy to see but if you look close there are two squares with what looks like a "K" inside of each. One set (stamped on the .280 Ross SXS) is a little clearer than the other which I found on a Greifelt clamshell (upper portion of picture). Most often these marks have to do with the barrel maker but I am not sure at this point. The other stamps are standard issue proof marks. There are two stamped letters that look like "DH" on the barrels as well but they are probably inspector stamps. I haven't seen a blitz action Greifelt clamshell and I don't see them noted in an early Greifelt catalog that I have so perhaps it's not a Greifelt. Of course there is that chance that the person ordering this piece didn't want the screws and pins that run through the side panels of an Anson & Deeley boxlock messing up his game scenes so he (or she I suppose) insisted on a blitz action, who knows? In the Autumn 1997 Volume 8 Issue 8 of The Doublegun Journal Fredrik Franzen wrote that there was a thought that Otto Selisch of Wiesbaden specialized in making clamshell receivers and sold them to the various gun manufacturers in Germany. In recent correspondence with Fredrik he told me he now believes that many manufacturers, most notebly the Merkel folks, made them.

What would please me more than knowing who made the piece would be knowing who ordered it. I'm not sure if the gold and platinum initials on the top lever are "MR" or "RM" but whoever this person was they did not skimp on goodies.

It's all these little mysteries that make collecting the German arms a bit of a challenge, for those of us who are always curious.

Regards,

Marcus







--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by CptCurl (14/12/09 10:49 PM)


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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #147948 - 14/12/09 04:06 PM

NE Gents,

I don’t know why the light just went on, perhaps it was something nhdblfan (Dave) said, but it just occured to me that I had forgotten to update you on what I found out about the subject rifle. Back in late September while trying once again to find out who Edurtreg Company - New York was a friend of mine suggested I try contacting the New York Historical Society. Why I hadn’t thought of contacting them earlier is beyond me but I guess so is a lot of other stuff. Anyway, I took my friends advice and sent them an e-mail. A little over two weeks later this showed up:

To: Buchseman (edit)
From: reference/NYHS
Date: 10/10/2009 03:51PM
Subject: Fw: Researching: Edurtreg Company - New York
Dear Buchseman (another edit),

It appears that the Edurtreg Company left little mark in New York City. I did finally find two listings for it in the New York City directories, in 1915 and 1916, only. There was no listing in 1917 and the years following, or in 1913 (a 1914 edition was not issued).

The 1915 listing reads:
Edurtreg Co. (RTN [registered trade name]), Robert Muller, Jr., 22 Wash. pl., mail orders.
The 1916 reads the same way, except the business is described as "hatters supplies."

On searching Robert Muller, Jr., one finds that he was the president of Robert Muller & Company, described as "trimmings" or "hatters supplies" at the same Washington Place address, until later moving to Mercer Street. Muller's home address, when given, is Pelham Manor, New York.

We have corporation directories for 1910 and 1918. This does not help us for the Edurtreg Company but provides this information for the other company in 1918:
Muller, Robert & Co. (NY), Robt. Muller, jr Pres, Francis Scott Sec. Capital $100,000. Directors: Robert Muller jr, Chas E. Williams, Jay H. Jenkins, Francis Scott, hat bands, 297 Mercer.
I hope this is of some help to you.

Sincerely,

MT
Reference Librarian

The New-York Historical Society
170 Central Park West
New York, NY 10024-5194
Reference: 212-485-9225
E-mail: reference@nyhistory.org


I just about jumped out of my seat when I read it.

Going back to my old post I had said that “BEST GERMAN MAKE ESP MANUFACTURED FOR EDURTREG COMPANY - NEW YORK” is in gold and platinum inlay on the top rib, the first letter of each word is in gold and the others in platinum. Per the letter from the NYHS the name Edurtreg Company was only used for the years 1915 and 1916 thus one could conclude that the year of manufacture for this piece is probably one of the two. Also, it doesn’t seem to be much of a stretch (to me anyway) that it is very possible that the owner of the company, one Mr. Robert Muller Jr. had ordered and imported this gun for himself as the initials “RM” in platinum and gold respectively are on the top lever. My thought is Mr. Muller had very good taste in firearms and wanted something hot.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #147983 - 15/12/09 06:15 AM

I think I need a bib. I'm drooling

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Metalguy]
      #148017 - 15/12/09 01:36 PM

I'm pretty confident that this clamshell was sourced from E.(Erdmann) Schmidt and (Eduard??) Habermann, who founded their business in 1860. To the best of my knowledge Erdmann Schmidt was a businessman and Eduard?? Habermann was a gunsmith with a emphasis in stocking. By the time this example was made Franz & Paul Stadelmann were the owners. I'm not exactly sure of the model number but the clamshell DR with an A&D system is a Model 555 and it has similar arcaded fences. I know that E. Schmidt and Habermann manufactured a blitz action as there is a pic of an 8x57JRS in a catalogue reprint available from GGCA( www.germanguns.com ) and it is the Suhl side panels that point to its source. E. Schmidt and Habermann were known to make examples for many retailers and either they sourced the clamshell frames from Bernhard Merkel, who in turn sourced them from Sauer or E. Schmidt and Habermann sourced Sauer directly. I think it can be correctly stated that most, if not all, of the Berlin makers who offered clamshells sourced Bernhard Merkel or one of the Merkel boys. The craftsmen of Suhl/Zella-Mehlis were on par, or above, any makers in the world and economics was the driving factor. They could make the best or they could make price-point arms. I'm not positive on the "DH" but I would venture a guess that Eduard Habermann had heirs and assigns and one was named Daniel; therefore, if a Daniel Habermann did exist, then he fitted the tubes to the action. The addressing of the top of the Krupp tubes looks much older than 1912-1915 and the Krupp stamp also looks to be an earlier version. If you ever have it apart I hope there are additional stamps on the frame to substantiate my hypothesis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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8X57
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Reged: 09/06/10
Posts: 105
Loc: UK & Sultanate of Oman
Re: German Clamshell in .280 Ross [Re: Buchsemann]
      #250147 - 08/07/14 01:32 AM

Very pretty. Perfect proportions.

"Brasso" gets those horn trigger guards cleaned up nicely. A tip I learnt from a traditional old tobacconist who used to service his customers pipes. That is what he swore by for polishing up the mouth pieces which if were not modern plastic would be made of horn.


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