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AfricanHunter
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Loc: Nebraska, USA
Caliber bans in Sudan & India
      #114835 - 19/09/08 01:01 PM

I am going to write about some questions that have bugged me for years. According to some writings the powers to be in England outlawed the importation of rifles and ammunition into the Sudan and India in the early years after 1900, of .450 calibers due to “political unrest” of the locals. This affected such calibers as the .500x450 x 3.25 and .450 x 3.25, whether Nitro or BP and the .450 #2.

Therefore, the gun makers came out with others such as the .470, .475 #2 Eley and Jeffrey, .476 WR, and .465 Holland at various dates between then and say 1910.

Now, consider the rifle #19109, in .500/450 completed in Dec. of 1908 for President Roosevelt. According to Teddy’s writing this rifle went with him on the big safari that started in Kenya and ended in Khartoum, Sudan. At that date, why would H & H make the rifle in .500/450 or the President order that caliber when it was banned where he was going? Selective enforcement of the ban?

Now going a step further, during the ‘70’s I owned (and regret selling!) and hunted with rifle #19108, in .450 #2, a Royal Deluxe made in 1907, for the Maharajah Pretab Bahadur in India. ( Also inlaid in gold on the barrels.) That rifle came to me out of India through H &H through one of their American directors at the time. How did that happen? Selective enforcement of the ban?

Both are great rifles and mine was a joy to use, but I just wonder how tight the ban really was. Any theories anyone has, I would like to hear.


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ChrisPer
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: AfricanHunter]
      #114850 - 19/09/08 03:34 PM

First, 'selective enforcement' would probably exclude any Maharajah from the ban as part of the black letter law. Even here in 'egalitarian' anti-gun Western Australia, the first person exempted from needing a licence is not the soldier, but the Governor.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: ChrisPer]
      #114967 - 20/09/08 09:37 PM

Yes my GUESS too is VVIP are and were somewhat above the rules for mere mortals.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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beleg2
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: NitroX]
      #114970 - 20/09/08 10:01 PM

May I ad the link to another forum?
It have very good info.
Thanks
Martin


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: beleg2]
      #114977 - 20/09/08 10:54 PM

OK link away.

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beleg2
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: NitroX]
      #114983 - 20/09/08 11:22 PM

It is a copy of an old post by 400 NitroExpress.
Sorry but I reread it and I much like to copy and paste:

"The .450 Nitros were never banned, but the order gradually came to be erroneously interpreted that way over time by many bureaucrats

That version [that the .450 Nitros were entirely banned] has been parroted endlessly, but that doesn't make it true.

The hotspot in India at the end of the 19th century was the Northwest Frontier, the border between British India and Afghanistan, as the same border between Pakistan and Afghanistan remains a hotspot today. At the time, the Afridi tribesmen were raiding military stockpiles for rifles and ammunition, and using them to shoot up the place. Like bureaucrats today, The Right Honourable The Governor in Council for the Bombay Presidency had a typical bureaucrat's solution. In March, 1899, he issued an order banning the importation of rifles and ammunition in .303 British, .577/.450 Martini Henry, and .577 Snider - the three military rifles and cartridges then stockpiled in India - in a misguided attempt to deny arms and ammunition to the rebels. Further, residents of India of British and European descent, whether British subjects or not, were specifically exempted from the order. Such residents were permitted to import rifles in the banned calibers, together with a quantity of ammunition suitable for personal use. The reference to the Foreign Office in the link above is simply fluff, as the Foreign Office had no authority over India. British authority over India was exercised directly through the crown's Viceregal, and the Secretary of State for India, Lord Hamilton, neither of which chose to meddle in this affair.

The ban was aimed at the native Indian population, but the Maharajas were a huge source of revenue to the British gun trade. The trade didn't care much about the other two, but the .303 ban was a huge problem. The .303 was then to the British what the .30-06 has been to us for the last 100 years. They got busy introducing replacement cartridges for it for the Indian market. The .400/.350, .350 No. 2, the four .400/.360s, and Holland's .375 2 1/2" Flanged Nitro Express were all introduced as .303 replacements between 1899 and 1901. BSA also picked up the 8mm BSA, also called the .315 Mauser, for the previously .303 caliber Lee-Enfield sporting rifles that they manufactured for the Indian market.

With the .303 issue then resolved, that should have been the end of it. Unfortunately, Indian civil service bureaucrats gradually began to interpret the order as prohibiting ALL .303, .450, and .577 bore rifles. This interpretation was clearly illegal, as the Governor's order was very specific, but the trade couldn't get in front of the problem for some reason. Because the import of most of the .450 sporting ammunition was gradually being strangled due to misinterpretation of the order, a crisis in the availability of ammunition for them in India resulted, which peaked in 1906. To the trade, the only way to cut the Gordian knot seemed to be what was done with the .303.

Eley Brothers first drew the .500/.465 NE, .475 3 1/4" NE, and the .475 No. 2 NE in January, 1907. In February, the original version of the .475 No. 2 was discarded, and a new version drawn, which Eley retained for proprietary purposes, and another version of it was drawn for Jeffery's proprietary use. By that time, Holland had picked up the .500/.465 as proprietary, and Cogswell & Harrison the .475 3 1/4". Westley Richards introduced their .476 somewhat later.

It's true that the .450 bore was banned in the Sudan, but it certainly never was in the remainder of British Africa. In fact, the three .450 Nitros remained very popular throughout the remainder of British territory in Africa for a long time after. Theodore Roosevelt used a Holland .450 on his famous safari in 1910, and Kermit used a Rigby .450. Many famous East African professionals continued to use .450s for as long as Kynoch continued to make the ammunition, including Philip Percival, who ordered a new pair of Lang .450 No. 2s in 1927.

For the British gun trade, the Indian rifle market was huge. In comparison, the African market was never more than a small sideshow, and the Sudan a tiny segment of that. The ban in the Sundan was too insignificant to matter to them."

Thanks
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (20/09/08 11:26 PM)


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: beleg2]
      #114989 - 21/09/08 12:05 AM

Gentlemen,

I am not sure about the historical background to these laws but I do know that calibres listed as "prohibited bores" in India (and this included all military calibres that had been used by the various colonial powers in the country ie Britain, France and Portugal and in the Danish settlements of Dansborg, Tranquebar and Sadras which were administered by the British) were and remain banned for general ownership. However - and this is very important - retiring military and police officers were allowed to own them as were people who could get a license from the Central government in Delhi. That is still the case. And my suspicion is that with Indian (and to a lesser extent Pakistani and Bangladeshi laws) being based on British laws in a historical context, ownership was possible to those with connectiuons. There were also concessions given to tribes like the Coorgis of Karnataka and some Sikh communities who were declared "martial races" and were and still are allowed to issue their own licenses to their communities because of their service to the British and later the Indian government in the various wars that they fought in in different parts of the world.

In 1984 the Central government of India put all calibres larger than 8mm on the prohibited bore list but the Indian SUpreme COurt threw those restrictions out about five years ago. Military calibres remain banned, though, and you do not see rifles in these calibres available even to military officers who would be entitled to own them because the import of firearms has been banned since 1984 as well except for target shooters and for Indians who work outside the country for at least 1 year.

Not sure if this confuses the issue or helps.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Paul
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #115023 - 21/09/08 09:19 AM

Quote:

In 1984 the Central government of India put all calibres larger than 8mm on the prohibited bore list but the Indian SUpreme COurt threw those restrictions out about five years ago. Military calibres remain banned, though, and you do not see rifles in these calibres available even to military officers who would be entitled to own them because the import of firearms has been banned since 1984 as well except for target shooters and for Indians who work outside the country for at least 1 year.




So is this the reason for the flood of double rifles from India into Australia about 20 years ago?

This is a great thread about a subject I almost dismissed as cut and dried.

- Paul


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: Paul]
      #115637 - 27/09/08 07:32 AM

Paul,

The trickle of Indian guns out of the country actually began after the ban on hunting in 1976. After 1984 it became a flood. The bulk of guns shipped out to the UK and the USA were by some large Indian dealers and by Westley Richards whose owner Walter Clode bought them for pennies on the dollar and resold for huge profits. These days, Purdey, Holland and Holland and several others advertise for old guns in India though supplies of the old guns are drying up.

My feeling is that many of the guns that came to Australia probably came due to the efforts of the Anglo-Indian community which began migrating to Australia in the early 1970s under the then in practice "White Australia Policy." Many of them were hunters and were familiar with guns and their values to an extent that Indians, at the time, were not. And many of the old royal houses were badly in need of money with the withdrawal of Privy Purses and Previleges, and they found it convenient to sell many of these old guns off. That said, there still are some palace armouries still in existence in India (armouries were able to circumvent the 3 guns per person limit of 1984 because they were, essentially, dealers) and these armouries have a very large number of old guns with them though their owners are hardly in a position to shoot or sometimes even maintain them in decent shape.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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9.3x57
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #115720 - 28/09/08 09:23 AM

Mehul:

Fascinating. Really, I very much appreciate your input on the subject. Very interesting!

"India" in general is a rivetting subject. Add shootin' irons to the mix and it is fascinating!

I wonder what "stashes" remain to be discovered...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Paul
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: 9.3x57]
      #115731 - 28/09/08 11:11 AM

Quote:


My feeling is that many of the guns that came to Australia probably came due to the efforts of the Anglo-Indian community which began migrating to Australia in the early 1970s under the then in practice "White Australia Policy."





Yes, Mehul, most of my Indian and Sri Lankan friends at the local church came here in the 1970s when the White Australia Policy ended. It had been a narrow-minded policy, analogous in a way with the Africa-for-Africans push seen in many parts of the 'Dark Continent'. Unfortunatly my friends from the Sub-continent don't have any db rifles or go hunting. Some don't even eat meat.

Cheers
- Paul


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Squarebridge
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: Paul]
      #115732 - 28/09/08 11:48 AM

What exactly was the goal - to stop access to .450 caliber bullets that could be used to possibly reload spent military cases? Or to make the posession of the caliber illegal except by military personel so that no rifle that came into the hands of a private citizen could be explained by "I found it on the road" or "I bought it in the market"?

Subjects like this are fascinating, and (to me at least) reinforce the great quote that William Faulkner said about history: "The past isn't dead. It isn't even past."

I also remember, and this may be silly but I'll mention it anyway, a scene in the movie "Quigley Down Under" where the main character is trying to assemble ammunition for his Sharps. He spends the night with a local gunsmith who tells him that his .45 caliber ammunition is illegal (or something to that effect) and Quigley gives him some ideas about how to work around the law.

Is that Hollywood fantasy, or was the caliber likewise illegal in Australia in the late 19th century?


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RLI
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: Squarebridge]
      #115737 - 28/09/08 02:01 PM

I remember the scene where Quigley is trying to get .45 bullets to reload for his 45-110 rifle but the local gunsmith? says he has none (very rare calibre in a British colony) but Quigley suggests using a British calibre , 450 No2 Musket maybe?, I will have to watch it again!

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

Edited by RLI (28/09/08 04:22 PM)


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Paul
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: RLI]
      #115742 - 28/09/08 04:22 PM

In the 1960s at least, all military calibres seem to have been illegal in the State of New South Wales. In Victoria 'high-power rifles' (centrefires) required licences but you could have .303s and .30/06, 7x57s etc. I don't think the New South Welshmen needed licences, but they couldn't have calibres that had ever been used by the armies of any nation.

- Paul


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kamilaroi
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: Paul]
      #115756 - 28/09/08 07:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:


My feeling is that many of the guns that came to Australia probably came due to the efforts of the Anglo-Indian community which began migrating to Australia in the early 1970s under the then in practice "White Australia Policy."





Yes, Mehul, most of my Indian and Sri Lankan friends at the local church came here in the 1970s when the White Australia Policy ended. It had been a narrow-minded policy, analogous in a way with the Africa-for-Africans push seen in many parts of the 'Dark Continent'. Unfortunatly my friends from the Sub-continent don't have any db rifles or go hunting. Some don't even eat meat.

Cheers
- Paul




True in part; The "White Australia" policy conveniently excluded all Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders from this as they were considered to be under "protection" from "evil outside oriental/commie influences" by being allegedly less mentally developed than perfidious Orientals (and whitefellas)and by implication those devious Indian/ Sri Lankan sub continental castes.

Read into this what you may but the state of Queensland laws were a model for those apartheid laws of South Africa and the two "Rhodesias." Under the original Queensland (state) Act blackfellas were classified as fauna and a blanket licence was given to pastoralists to shoot any male considered to be "of menace" within a procsribed distance of a homestead. The original QLD Act was titled "Sale of Opium and Protection of Aborigines Act". One might ask (metaphorically) from whom were the local folk to be protected from?

Apart from that the two Winfer fellas, John Saumders and others were a conduit for the ingress of fine pommy arms of all descriptions from Injah.

The ingress of "persons of tha Empah" during the mid to late 19th century was a major force in the formation of the Australian Labour Party to counter the implied effect of cheap labour undermining those "of British stock", despite the self imposed prohibition of whitefellas being unfit to undertake physical work in the tropics. Thus the "blackbirding" raids to the pacific Islands, mainly Fiji and Kanakh groups.

It's a bit more complex subject than might be undertaken within this forum.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: kamilaroi]
      #115769 - 28/09/08 11:09 PM

Quote:

It's a bit more complex subject than might be undertaken within this forum.





The White Australia Policy had its origins in the Gold Mining days when thousands of Chinese came to Australia to dig for gold. In the main they were required to leave and could not settle here. (unless I am drastically wrong?)


***

But this subject is not on immigration, but on British Empire gun bans on the .450 calibre.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: 9.3x57]
      #115770 - 28/09/08 11:16 PM

Quote:

I wonder what "stashes" remain to be discovered...




Be careful on con men on the internet trying to sell double rifles off these forums.

There was a previous member of NE officially from Agra, whom claimed he had several double rifles for say and used to PM or email members offering them for sale.

He offered me four and I said I was interested in all four, as the prices were reasonable. I said I was going to change some flights and drop into India to look at them when on the way to Europe, but wanted photos first. He then "disappeared".

Popped back a few months later claiming he had been away. But of course as an admin I can see which members are browsing the forums and he had been around continually.

Later maybe six months later he was secretly back trying to sell the same rifles to another member by email. I was told about it and asked him to play the guy along, and eventually ask for photos. Again the guy disappeared.

Pretty inept if he thinks anyone is going to send thousands of dollars to him with no photos and not being present to see possession of the rifles is secured immediately.

But be warned!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: Squarebridge]
      #115779 - 29/09/08 12:57 AM

Quote:

What exactly was the goal - to stop access to .450 caliber bullets that could be used to possibly reload spent military cases? Or to make the posession of the caliber illegal except by military personel so that no rifle that came into the hands of a private citizen could be explained by "I found it on the road" or "I bought it in the market"?





The British government's intentions were simple - they wanted to preserve their Empire in India and in Sudan. They had suffered bad defeats in the initial fighting in India in 1857 and later in Sudan during the Mahdi rebellion. And they also had alliances with fickle Indian kingdoms who sent tens of thousands of soldiers to fight in wars across the globe. The risk of soldiers and of civilians having access to the same arms and getting together to fight a rebellion against the British was too great especially once Indian nationalism began to express itself in the movement for independence. In the end, in 1947, the British left not because they wanted to or because the Americans pressured them to - the fact is that more than a million Indians had fought in WW-2. The prospect of a rebellion by several hundred thousand soldiers was too much for a country that had narrowly won a war that threatened its very existence, and which it won with the support of the Americans and the Soviets.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: NitroX]
      #115781 - 29/09/08 01:01 AM

John,

My suggestion to anyone who wants to buy a gun from India would be to check with only those gun shops that have export licenses. There still are hundreds of gun shops but the number that have permission to expoirt guns is very small - probably less than 20 across the country. It is best to go to one of those, see for yourself, handle a gun and then buy it.

That said, these days, prices in India are much higher than outside as some of the big bore guns are now legal again thanks to the Supreme Court decision of some years ago. Those that are chambered in obsolete calibres are probably still available cheap (I have ben away for five years and am not sure what prices are like) but for the most part, that market is as good as dead.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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sukhpreet2000
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Re: Caliber bans in Sudan & India [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #121487 - 18/12/08 08:31 PM

The old Arms Act of 1878 did provide for certain firearms to be prohibited.However,I have so far not come across any list of prohibited firearms issued under it.The Arms Act of 1887 imposed sever restrictions on the import of firearms and ammunition.However,import of firearms by individuals for their own personal use was allowed(Section 6 of the Arms Act, 1878)the catch being that the person so importing arms and/or ammunition should be "lawfully entitled to possess such arms or ammunition".Indians were generally denied a license.Only those who were considered to be loyal to the then dispensation were able to procure one.The white settlers/civil servants were exempted from the provisions of the Arms Act.So were the Indian Princes.They could import any firearm that they so wished provided that it was in a "reasonable quantity".

So any prohibition on the import of a specific caliber firearm or ammunition would not have applied to those exempted under the Arms Act.I have seen a large enough number of 303 rifles including some Lee Speeds and a WR double rifle, that would indicate that the private ownership of 303 rifles was not unusual.

Re. the export of firearms from India,after independence,many of the dealers importing arms and ammunition into India shut shop.Some of the old names existed but operated in local hands.The Indian govt. in a misguided attempt to encourage local manufacture and to save scarce foreign exchange,began to discourage import of goods,including arms and ammunition.Dealers were not granted licenses to import arms and ammunition.Ammunition for many of the firearms became hard if not impossible to find.Thus coupled with the reduced financial condition of many of the owner of these fine guns,lead many to sell them to dealers who exported them in bulk.The abolition of the privy purses granted to the Indian Rajas meant that many were reduced to selling anything that could be sold.The special status accorded to them was also withdrawn including the exemption from the Arms Act.This made it extremely inconvenient for them to hold on to a large no. of firearms.Many kept the best ones with themselves and the rest were sold with the bulk being bought by dealers for export as the prices in India were lower than what people were willing to pay abroad.

Re. export of firearms,antiques, firearms of the type/caliber used by the armed forces and firearms for which import of ammunition is allowed can't be exported.

Edited by sukhpreet2000 (18/12/08 08:32 PM)


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