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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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larcher
.416 member

Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France

Size of an elephant head?
#114783 - 19/09/08 01:28 AM

Following Bake's great post, I dare to ask what are the exact measurements of the skull of a bull ele and of a cow.

More specifically
What's the distance a bullet has to plow on into flesh, muscle and bone to reach the brain.
Cow and Bull
1 case of side brain shot
2 case of a frontal brain shot head normally held
3 case of a frontal brain shot head low
4 case of a frontal brain shot head high (trump interfering)

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: larcher]
#114830 - 19/09/08 12:14 PM

Quote:

Following Bake's great post, I dare to ask what are the exact measurements of the skull of a bull ele and of a cow.

More specifically
What's the distance a bullet has to plow on into flesh, muscle and bone to reach the brain.
Cow and Bull
1 case of side brain shot
2 case of a frontal brain shot head normally held
3 case of a frontal brain shot head low
4 case of a frontal brain shot head high (trump interfering)

Larcher,

Size of elephant heads varies considerably. Below are some photos of me standing beside dead elephants, tuskless cows, a tusked cow and bulls. You can see great variance. I'm maybe 6' or 6' 1" in my boots for reference, my double rifles has 26 1/4" barrels and is about 43" long.

But my estimates, based on "average" elephants @ ~15yds:

1. Side brain (to first contact with brain, not center or passd through) = tuskless or tusked cow, 12", bull 18"

2. Frontal, normal head (not especially high nor low) = any cow 18", bull 2'

3. Frontal, low head (as in way low, charging) = any cow 12", bull 18"

4. Frontal, high head (as in peering down at you) = any cow 2 1/2', bull 3 1/2'

But take a look and give it your best guess. I give some of the extra penetration needed for bulls because of their greater height. There is a tape measure in some photos.

One photo of each elephant, except the bull with the really big head, where there are two, one with Buzz and I sitting on legs in a side on photo and one where we are each sitting one different sides on a front on photo. I chose the photos with the best chance of deducing head size and not those taken from angles which make me or the elephants relatively disproportionally large. Elephants pictured range from huge (for Zim) to on the small side. All from Zimbabwe, from the Zambezi Valley through the Kariba region to the lowveld.

Hope this helps.

JPK

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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: JPK]
#114840 - 19/09/08 01:36 PM

Some great shooting John! Fine looking elephants. Some good teeth in the lot as well. I developed elephant fever while in the valley! Really want to hunt them.

--------------------
One day at a time...

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larcher
.416 member

Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: bigmaxx]
#114869 - 19/09/08 10:32 PM

Hi JPK

Thanks for helping.
I just left JPK, Jean Paul Kobloth, a close friend who shares my lunch every day.

Real great pictures and quite an accomplishment to have shot so many elephants, with brain shots at that.
Your pictures give food for estimating the size of elephant skull.
Your measurements are great but I suspect that You’re overestimating the real distances.
I guess estimated thanks to shoulders’ width of Buzz. As my luggage was delayed I had to wear Buzz’s shirts. The blue one was tested but is now history. The mapangara (thorn bush) is a real touchstone to test cotton’s quality. Buzz’s shirts fitting me, I deduce that we share the same shoulders’ width, about 47cm, +/- 19”. Using this poor scale, I am tempted to find lower penetration’s distances than what You provide.
What would be of great help is the length of your double’s barrels that will provide a certain scale.
Thanks

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

Edited by larcher (19/09/08 11:54 PM)

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: JPK]
#114874 - 19/09/08 10:41 PM

JPK

WOW--now that is laying down the wood...

Being a bit of a gun nut--what caliber where you shooting?

Again, Great job...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
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Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: bigmaxx]
#114875 - 19/09/08 10:44 PM

Quote:

Some great shooting John! Fine looking elephants. Some good teeth in the lot as well. I developed elephant fever while in the valley! Really want to hunt them.

+++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hate to say I told you so...But...

Amazing, you get chased by a few and hammer one or two and it appears the "Game is on"...

Nothing wrong with the others...but to date--at least for me..there is NO comparison to elephant as far as African game...just my opinion...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
Posts: 660
Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: Ripp]
#114878 - 19/09/08 10:55 PM

Yes Ripp. I see a double rifle in my future. Another challenging hunt...LOL.

--------------------
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bakerb
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Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: bigmaxx]
#114902 - 20/09/08 05:20 AM

Great pictures JPK. NOw I'm really jealous. I figure if I can get up the scratch to hunt and take a mature bull elephant, and a mature altai argali, I'll be one happy camper

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: bakerb]
#114911 - 20/09/08 07:12 AM

Too all,

So that I'm not taking credit where it isn't due, not all of those elephants were killed with one perfect brain shot. Some where knocked down or down and out out with the first shot but needed my second barrel to kill them, some took more than that. I'm successful braining the elephant on my first shot roughly 50% of the time or so.

Larcher,

The barrels on my rifle are 26 1/4". They are in mm's but the rifle isn't here (at my office) and I don't recall that number but the inches aka American version I do know!

I don't think my numbers are off too much. If you look at the bulls and the two cows on there sides, one with two bullet holes, one large on with only one, you might re-evaluate.

Ripp,

The rifle is a Marcel Thys in 458wm.

I know that only rimmed cartridges work in doubles, but please don't tell my rifle that. I also know that 450gr or 500gr bullets from the 458wm bounce off buff and elephants and no less than a Lott is needed, but please don't tell the elephants that either.

I agree on the elephant hunting and you've seen the evidence that elephant hunting is more adictive than crack cocaine. I was lucky I had a wife, kids and mortgage before shooting my first elephant or I would have foregone all of those for fufilling the fever.

BigMaxx,

You've got the fever, I can tell already!

A double is the ultimate rifle for elephant hunting. But if you think you'll be shooting more than one or two, make it a 450NE or better. John Taylor wasn't all wrong! My rifle has saved my life or the lives of a tracket or game scout more than once.

Bake,

Don't overlook a tuskless hunt, it is typically a more exciting but less physically demanding hunt. Cheaper too. So try a tuskless as soon as you can and then go for the bull, is my advice.

BTW, I head out on the 28th with quota for five more tuskless and a trophy bull. More quota than time since I need to be feet on the ground here the 19th October, but they were packaged together in two pieces and neither piece alone had what I wanted.

After this hunt I believe I will need to batten down the hatches for a while and attend to business in what looks like its going to be a tough economy.

JPK

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larcher
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Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: JPK]
#114957 - 20/09/08 06:20 PM

Hi JPK

Thanks for Your data.
Your double isn't the first handy one grabbed from the shelf, Marcel Thys is a very renowned maker. Even more a rarity in the USA than in Europe or Belgium.

Don't be ashame about Your 458 caliber. My PH in the CAR was using a Heym in 458 also, a Lott but a 458. Now he is using my Weath 460??????? Sure I don't regret it. Everybody has to bear his own cross

I don't doubt that the 458 has plenty of ooomph and is far sufficient for elephants. It's the rimless version of the 470, not less not more.
Now it's time that I calculate again. Your barrel are 66.6 cm long, a current measurement is 67, what's fairly long for a double.

Edited by larcher (20/09/08 06:33 PM)

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Size of an elephant head? [Re: larcher]
#114994 - 21/09/08 12:43 AM

Quote:

Following Bake's great post, I dare to ask what are the exact measurements of the skull of a bull ele and of a cow.

+++++++++++++

O.K.--now you guys have me totally focused AGAIN on hunting elephant---so picked up the book NDLOVU last evening--and in there it shows ele skulls and brain size by age groups...you are all probably tired of hearing about this book...BUT, I am telling you..it has a wealth of information on this topic...

One of the PH's in camp in Zim this year is actually a next door neighbor to the author...so he was well aware of the book also ...PH was Lynn--he agreed..very good book...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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